[DF] Advice for first-time Dungeon Fantasy GM

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

• Don't worry about PCs dying. They can always make a new one.

Back when I was working on Modern Action RPG, a homebrew RPG in many ways similar to the later GURPS Action, I had in mind writing an official rule saying that each player had to create a backup character, before the campaign begins, so that he can get right back into participating if his first character dies.

Would that be a good idea for DF?

I'm thinking the main benefit might actually be signal value, if I'm going to GM for some players I've never GM'ed before, or some players who have no experience with the system used (GURPS, Sagatafl, or hypotethically Modern Action RPG), telling them very strongly and directly that "this is for real, this campaign takes place in a dangerous world, and your characters can die."

Making a backup character for vanilla GURPS is an involved process, and I don't think many players who are GURPS fans will want to do that. Making a backup character in Sagatafl takes even more effort (whcih is why any such rule there would be a guideline, and would usually give the playes a month or 6 weeks extra time to make the 2nd character, after gamestart), but with the detailed and fairly flexible templates in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy volume 1, it's not very ardorous to make a backup.

So would it be a good idea? Specifically for bog-standard GURPS DF campaigns?

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

So would it be a good idea? Specifically for bog-standard GURPS DF campaigns?

Sounds good to me. You could give the players the option of making a backup character, or selecting one of a few GM-made characters. Having backup characters made ahead of time also gives you the option of including them as NPCs - they'll drop by in the tavern, chat about their own adventures, etc - so that if they're called on to join the party they aren't complete strangers.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Dammann

I outlined a campaign world when I started my DF campaign, but I sometimes wish I hadn't. I think a lot of fun comes from trying to rationalizing why things are so weird on the fly, and taking some flip remark a player makes about the world and deciding it is true. When a player says, "Owlbear? Those things are like loot piñatas!" I decided that his treasure was literally inside of him. I really like the disconcerted looks when the player realize that they called it.

If I were starting now, I would spend my preparation time on statting challenges, and no time on thinking about the setting, allowing it to emerge on its own. I mean, you need rumors and hooks, I guess, but a list of undefined names and place names is good enough to improve that stuff for me.

One reason to at least sketch a pseudo-world, is to provide players with a list of Languages, for their Bards, Sages and Wizards. Otherwise one player might spend 25 CP, 10% of his budget, on Language Talent and a lot of different ancient, current and monstreous Languages, only to find out that everybody, with no exception can speak at least Accented Common.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by b-dog

GURPS Fantasy is a good book but it really just an overview of the fantasy genre. I would hope for a more supported series that deals with high fantasy but is geared more towards the serious end of the spectrum. I use the DF series now for rules, monsters and treasure but I play in a gameworld set in Mythic Earth which is similar to Ars Magica with real gods and cultures as the back drop for dungeon delving.

I don't think you'll get that, ever. There's already Ars Magica's Mythic Europe. Granted, there's also my Ärth historica fantasy setting, but I have no intention of trying to publish any RPG material commercially. I really don't think there's a market for it. Many people have a knee-jerk negative reaction to the use of real-world religions in Banestorm, Pendragon, Ars Magica and Quest FRP. And Ärth. They'd much rather have shallow lowbrow AD&D-shaped made-up crap.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Jovus

There are (at least, non-exclusive) two ways to play Dungeon Fantasy. One is the semi-serious, ignoring-all-the-world-rigor dungeon delving for the feel of epic adventure, risk and gain. This has a lot of different shades. My personal leaning lies here along the 'discover the world and its secrets' vein. When I think of dungeon delving, I think of overgrown ruins and ancient empires and pillaging their bones for wealth while coming across awesome and terrible secrets and, occasionally, trying to carve out your own pocket empire on the face of the world.

The problem with "discover the world during play" is that this means players can't create characters who have already discovered a lot of the world prior to gamestart.

GURPS DF characters start out highly competent, unlike 1st level characters in level-based RPGs or computer games, yet with the same minimal degree of world experience as those 1st level characters.

That makes it impossible to create one potentially very interesting character concept.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Kromm

That already exists. It's called GURPS Fantasy, GURPS Low-Tech, GURPS Low-Tech Companion 1 to 3, GURPS Thaumatology, and whatever else you want to include in your world (e.g., GURPS Mass Combat for feudal warfare or GURPS Underground Adventures for believable dungeons). That's as much "generic" support for serious fantasy as GURPS Dungeon Fantasy provides for the other kind. Abilities, gear, societies . . . it's all there. Of course, assembly is required, and that's fine – as I said earlier, the catch with settings is that they aren't generic, so they're a marketing gamble. We're not going to keep throwing darts until we get a bullseye; GURPS is by design a generic, toolkit system and not a setting-specific game like Ars Magica, so once we've provided the tools, we consider our job done.

And for the rest that b-dog wants, there are a lot of old GURPS supplements, such as GURPS Vikings, GURPS Middle Ages 1, GURPS Arabian Nights, GURPS Celtic Myth, and even some potentially relevant entries in GURPS Who's Who 1 and 2. GURPS Egypt and GURPS Aztecs too (those will certainly be of use for my Ärth setting, if PCs decide to tombcrawl for ancient magical artifiacts or knowledge, or travel to southern Vinland), and probably a few more.

There's also a lot of Ars Magica setting stuff that's relevant, both material for older editions, and material for the current 5th edition. I've pointed b-dog towards some of it before, and I'd be happy to help him further, if he asks me.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Certainly, I still let the PCs use rapier stabs to the eye, poison on arrows, and so on. They paid points for that stuff. But that's fare for those bandit battles and town quarrels I mentioned. Once you go off to fight constructs, demons, Elder Things, spirits, undead, etc., all bets are off. For the most part, your best tactic is to hit as hard and as often as you can with a swung weapon or a high-FP spell, and pray that you can deplete HP faster than they regenerate.

Do you have any advice for the OP, on how useful the Penetrating weapon Enchantment is? According to DF1 it's $5000, and gives an Armor Divisor of 2.

My instinct, if I were to play in a DF campaign, and if I were to play a fighter type (I'd be much more likely to play some kind of spellcaster, or a Thief, or Bard or Scholar,or maybe Artificer), would be to make a near-beeline to get that Enchantment on my favourite sword, because of the way DR works in GURPS.

Would that be a mistake? Presumably the price of $5000 is at least somewhat balanced with the other options. But I imagine it's possible for both GM and players to either over- or understimate how useful getting an AD on one's weapon is.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Do you have any advice for the OP, on how useful the Penetrating weapon Enchantment is? According to DF1 it's $5000, and gives an Armor Divisor of 2.

My instinct, if I were to play in a DF campaign, and if I were to play a fighter type (I'd be much more likely to play some kind of spellcaster, or a Thief, or Bard or Scholar,or maybe Artificer), would be to make a near-beeline to get that Enchantment on my favourite sword, because of the way DR works in GURPS.

Would that be a mistake? Presumably the price of $5000 is at least somewhat balanced with the other options. But I imagine it's possible for both GM and players to either over- or understimate how useful getting an AD on one's weapon is.

It's pretty darn useful, and I took it pronto on my Named Weapon, an axe.

For a bit, it made Cadmus sometimes the only guy who could hurt certain folks. It also means that since he does 2d+3 when he's not under the influence of Righteous Fury (which can add up to +6 to swing damage through the ST boost) that he can still inflict 2d cut through DR 6. With RF on, he's at up to 2d+9, but usually something like 2d+7, which means unless you're dealing with DR 20 golems or something, he can hit DR 8 plate armor as if it weren't there, still with 2d+3 cut remaining. Both of those blows will sever a leg or render someone to -HP in one shot.

What it still does not do is give you the benefits of high ST and Weapon Master for truly large damage totals of the type that Peter's knights have when they ARE such characters, swinging a flail.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

I don't think you'll get that, ever. There's already Ars Magica's Mythic Europe. Granted, there's also my Ärth historica fantasy setting, but I have no intention of trying to publish any RPG material commercially. I really don't think there's a market for it. Many people have a knee-jerk negative reaction to the use of real-world religions in Banestorm, Pendragon, Ars Magica and Quest FRP. And Ärth. They'd much rather have shallow lowbrow AD&D-shaped made-up crap.

Made-up religions and gods don't need to be shallow or lowbrow (and, at the risk of offending some people, I would personally describe most real mainstream religions as fairly shallow in their understandings of human nature, history, and metaphysics). "D&D-land" religions are often based on mythology, which is far truer to the vast majority of historic spiritual experiences than modern religion.
See the box on DF:7 page 5 for how to make your DF pantheons more "realistic."

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Do you have any advice for the OP, on how useful the Penetrating weapon Enchantment is? According to DF1 it's $5000, and gives an Armor Divisor of 2.

My instinct, if I were to play in a DF campaign, and if I were to play a fighter type (I'd be much more likely to play some kind of spellcaster, or a Thief, or Bard or Scholar,or maybe Artificer), would be to make a near-beeline to get that Enchantment on my favourite sword, because of the way DR works in GURPS.

Would that be a mistake? Presumably the price of $5000 is at least somewhat balanced with the other options. But I imagine it's possible for both GM and players to either over- or understimate how useful getting an AD on one's weapon is.

Penetrating Weapon, at $5000, is the same cost as Puissance (+1 damage). Puissance is more useful if you're fighting foes with DR 0, DR 1, or foes who have hardened armor; otherwise, Penetrating Weapon delivers equal or more damage past DR. Looking at the Beastiary in Dungeons, Penetrating Weapon is better against 10 out of 15 monsters (not counting the monsters that are diffuse, since damage is generally capped at 2 and neither Puissance nor Penetrating Weapon helps).

The average ST14 knight without Weapon Master, wielding a broadsword, does 2d+1 damage. If that sword has Puissance, he can't reliably hack through the armor of a Golem-Armor Swordsman, a Mindwarper, or a Siege Beast (average damage of 9 vs DR17, 10, and 10 respectively). With Penetrating Weapon, he can (damage 8 vs effective DR 9, 5, and 5 - he still has to get luck against the Golem, but at least it's possible now without a critical hit.)

Penetrating Weapon is severely undercosted unless hardened armor is routinely available. I've added a Hardening enchantment, priced the same as Fortify, in my games to balance in better.