[DF] Advice for first-time Dungeon Fantasy GM

[Jovus]

There are (at least, non-exclusive) two ways to play Dungeon Fantasy. One is the semi-serious, ignoring-all-the-world-rigor dungeon delving for the feel of epic adventure, risk and gain. This has a lot of different shades. My personal leaning lies here along the 'discover the world and its secrets' vein. When I think of dungeon delving, I think of overgrown ruins and ancient empires and pillaging their bones for wealth while coming across awesome and terrible secrets and, occasionally, trying to carve out your own pocket empire on the face of the world.

The other way is more comic, laughing at the genre and having a good time with it while playing it, poking holes and fun at its inconsistencies.

Know which one you want and which one your players want, is my advice.


(Disclaimer: I'm not saying that there aren't other ways to play or that the two above don't mix in some proportions in every game or really anything else anyone should get all worked up about if they think there's an exception to what I just said. There are LOTS of exceptions. I've just found it a useful distinction in my mind, since I lean one way and my players the other.)

[apoc527]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Since it's prohibitively expensive to publish alternative worked examples until one catches on with the crowd, or so that there is something for everybody, the alternative is to publish instructions on how to roll your own. We did that, too: GURPS Fantasy.

Basically, SJ Games has published both a genre guide and a serious worked example. It seems only fair that there's also a less-serious worked example for other tastes. It doesn't seem fair to criticize the latter product for not being one of the first two. It actually seems obtuse to ignore the first two and demand that the last one cover the ground they already covered.

I would add that "silly" and "can't take it seriously" do not mean that nobody cares about the outcome of the game. To me, I can view DF as a bit silly or non-serious, and still deeply care about the events of the game. I can probably even feel fear and a sense of dread while playing it. What I can't do is sit back and examine the game and nod my head sagely, saying things like "And this game, with its roving bands of murderhoboes, is completely high brow epic fantasy..."

It's beer and pretzels (or as I now prefer, "beardedness and pretzels") gaming at its finest. That doesn't make it stupid it just means you aren't supposed to feel the same way about it as you might feel about an ultra-serious Call of Cthulhu world-spanning investigation campaign with low power characters trying to prevent the end of existence. (And some people can't take that seriously either!)

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by b-dog

GURPS Fantasy is a good book but it really just an overview of the fantasy genre. I would hope for a more supported series that deals with high fantasy but is geared more towards the serious end of the spectrum. I use the DF series now for rules, monsters and treasure but I play in a gameworld set in Mythic Earth which is similar to Ars Magica with real gods and cultures as the back drop for dungeon delving.

That already exists. It's called GURPS Fantasy, GURPS Low-Tech, GURPS Low-Tech Companion 1 to 3, GURPS Thaumatology, and whatever else you want to include in your world (e.g., GURPS Mass Combat for feudal warfare or GURPS Underground Adventures for believable dungeons). That's as much "generic" support for serious fantasy as GURPS Dungeon Fantasy provides for the other kind. Abilities, gear, societies . . . it's all there. Of course, assembly is required, and that's fine – as I said earlier, the catch with settings is that they aren't generic, so they're a marketing gamble. We're not going to keep throwing darts until we get a bullseye; GURPS is by design a generic, toolkit system and not a setting-specific game like Ars Magica, so once we've provided the tools, we consider our job done.

[Jovus]

Originally Posted by Kromm

That's as much "generic" support for serious fantasy as GURPS Dungeon Fantasy provides for the other kind. Abilities, gear, societies . . . it's all there. Of course, assembly is required, and that's fine – as I said earlier, the catch with settings is that they aren't generic, so they're a marketing gamble.

Pithy one-liner: The only reason Dungeon Fantasy can be played out of the box instead of "some assembly required" is because there's no assembly, not because it's already been done by the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy line.

(Again, not quite true, and I have the proof in my sig. Dungeon Fantasy games require quite as much work as the other sort, even on the setting - just not on making that setting self-consistent.)

[b-dog]

As far as advice I would say first determine what your group likes. If they just want kill monsters and take their stuff then you can just buy a premade dungeon and stock it at whim with no thought as to why they are there and what they are doing. But if the players like a good story with mystery then make a good story that makes sense and when the players defeat the enemy and solve the mystery then they will be fullfilled. A good story goes a long way towards keeping players entertained. If the story is interesting then the players will be happy even if you are not an expert Dungeon Master.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

We went in with more of a "focus on one guy, cripple the legs, aim for the eyes" and ended with a lot more "don't waste any damage with blowthrough, and attack as much fodder per turn as possible" than we'd had before.

Really. Very interesting. That has just not been my limited experience so far. A missing leg has been a pretty much a quick fight ender for us, Scouts aim for eyes often and reap huge benefits, and an arm lopped off a two-handed wielder has been about as good as a kill.

I wonder if we will evolve the same way . . .

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Stripe

Really. Very interesting. That has just not been my limited experience so far. A missing leg has been a pretty much a quick fight ender for us, Scouts aim for eyes often and reap huge benefits, and an arm lopped off a two-handed wielder has been about as good as a kill.

I wonder if we will evolve the same way . . .

In my old game, doing 3d+ whatever and having skill 20+ was unusual. In this one, it's close to typical.

Cutting a leg off of a humanoid might end the fight. Might not. Same with a monster - especially a multi-legged one.

Stabbing the eyes? It might have a brain, it might not.

Chopping the body and putting it past -HP in one blow? Hard to discount that as a default tactic. Works way too often, and it works even if it turns out the guy has Supernatural Durability or Unkillable or is levitating or has No Brain - it's always valuable to ensure the most injury sticks to the target without blowthrough.

I know from my comments on berserkers that some people feel very differently from my guys - that you should cripple the legs, back off, and finish the crawling foe at your leisure. But ultimately we've found that's a waste of time - it's turning a one or two blow fight into a three to four blow fight for no additional value.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

I know from my comments on berserkers that some people feel very differently from my guys - that you should cripple the legs, back off, and finish the crawling foe at your leisure. But ultimately we've found that's a waste of time - it's turning a one or two blow fight into a three to four blow fight for no additional value.

Meh. You only need to finish the foe at all if he happens to have fallen on a spot that you, for some reason, absolutely need to occupy again, or if his death is the actual goal.

Absent these, which will usually be absent in practice, a foe that can't attack you isn't worth worrying about. Move on and forget about the crippled orc/minotaur/whatever.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Meh. You only need to finish the foe at all if he happens to have fallen on a spot that you, for some reason, absolutely need to occupy again, or if his death is the actual goal.

Absent these, which will usually be absent in practice, a foe that can't attack you isn't worth worrying about. Move on and forget about the crippled orc/minotaur/whatever.

My experience is that

- you often need to fight on that same ground.

- enemies with a crippled leg are movement-limited, but not motionless, nor unable to attack. Especially in a fantasy game, where opponents might have magic, psi, afflictions, innate attacks, sheer attack skill, and/or special advantages that reduce the impact of crippling.

- again, not all enemies are vulnerable, or usefully vulnerable, to crippling. You can waste a lot of time finding out, which is silly if you're hitting on a 16 or less and doing enough damage to threaten a one-shot kill. Skill 20+ and 2d+a lot or 3d+ a lot will be a one-shot kill on most "normal" (say, fodder) opponents, a one-two shot kill on tougher opponents.

- you might not win the fight, and a dead guy is less likely to come back and attack you (except as an undead), but an injured foe can.

I mean, my tactics might be featureless-plain foolish, but in a messy multi-fighter melee, leaving a guy with a crippled leg (if you even manage to cripple it) and pretending he's helpless is equally foolish.

Plus I feel like I have the experience of play to say that what my players are doing works. It may not be the only thing that will work, and other people are welcome to do what they will. But doing your best to get past defenses and then maximizing the amount of damage by hitting a non-blowthrough location to kill or fully incapacitate an opponent works. Arguing that it doesn't, or that it's wasteful, will fall on deaf ears as I watch my skill 22+, 2d+8 or 3d+8, Rapid Strike at -3 every turn PCs attack stuff to the body to ensure they don't waste strikes crippling what could be killed.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

Cutting a leg off of a humanoid might end the fight. Might not. Same with a monster - especially a multi-legged one.

Stabbing the eyes? It might have a brain, it might not.

Yeah, that reflects my experience. I'm not one to waste time worrying about ecology and enemy logistics on dungeon-crawls, but I do prefer to stage adventures sufficiently far from settlements that my players can suspend disbelief. Hordes of horrible monsters at the town limits or a day's hike away make no sense to me or, more important, to my players. Since my monsters are lurking far from conventional food sources, most often in places filled with traps, curses, poison slime, and Evil Runes, suspension of disbelief also dictates that they'll rarely be creatures with human-esque weaknesses. I save people who can be stabbed in the eye or have their legs chopped off for casual bandit encounters on the way to and from the dungeon, and for altercations in town. My standard dungeon creatures are Elder Things with unearthly biology, Homogenous golems, Diffuse slimes, semi- or wholly spectral undead, and so on, not to mention vast numbers of things with No Legs (Aerial or Slithers) – and traits like Doesn't Breathe, Doesn't Eat or Drink, Immunity to Metabolic Hazards, and Injury Tolerance are very common indeed.

Certainly, I still let the PCs use rapier stabs to the eye, poison on arrows, and so on. They paid points for that stuff. But that's fare for those bandit battles and town quarrels I mentioned. Once you go off to fight constructs, demons, Elder Things, spirits, undead, etc., all bets are off. For the most part, your best tactic is to hit as hard and as often as you can with a swung weapon or a high-FP spell, and pray that you can deplete HP faster than they regenerate.

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

enemies with a crippled leg are movement-limited, but not motionless, nor unable to attack. Especially in a fantasy game, where opponents might have magic, psi, afflictions, innate attacks, sheer attack skill, and/or special advantages that reduce the impact of crippling.

Indeed, any monster worth its salt isn't going to let being forced to crawl stop it. Ignoring the fact that I prefer monsters that ooze, slither, levitate, phase, or teleport, the ones that actually have legs aren't going to give up just because they're crippled. I always make sure that most serious monsters have at least one of an area-effect breath weapon (like as-Sharak and ice wyrms), a gaze weapon (like eyes of death and mindwarpers), a long-range bolt (like erupting slimes and flame lords), a dangerous emanation (like foul bats, horrid skulls, toxifiers, and undead slime), spells (like liches), or just a ranged weapon or even a melee weapon with long Reach. And of course I like zombies and similar ghoulies, who keep crawling after you and grappling if you don't utterly destroy them. My players have learned to go for K-kills . . . M-kills aren't nearly enough, and F-kills only work if the enemy has a weapon rather than an innate ability.