Born Biters (Martial Arts) and Cats, Dogs, and Bears

[Verjigorm]

Luke is our resident expert in lasers and lizards. Don't as him about the laser lizards though.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Luke is our resident expert in lasers and lizards. Don't as him about the laser lizards though.

"All I want is a frickin' lizard with a laser beam on it's head. Is that too much to ask?"
- Dr. Luke Evil

[Anders]

I wonder if Linda Lovelace qualifies for BB 1.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Luke is our resident expert in lasers and lizards. Don't as him about the laser lizards though.

Hmm, makes me want to stat up the infamous laser-breathing Blood Dragon...

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

If Born Biter is all about grappling rather than damage, then I'd give crocs a lot but none at all to thylacines -- the latter could get a better Tooth type instead to represent their hard biting force (based on biomechanical comparisons of their skulls with wolves and hyenas). But they couldn't grapple, their jaws were too fragile for that.

Gavials and tomistomas also wouldn't get Born Biter then, since they eat fish instead of large mammals.

It seems to be all about your ability to get your mouth around something. There doesn't seem to be any related disadvantage giving you a fragile mouth that I can find. Thylacines have that huge gape
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%22Benjamin%22.jpg
which makes one think they could get their mouths around reasonably large prey items, even if they would have trouble restraining a struggling kangaroo. Similarly, one could imagine that a gavial could clamp a man in its jaws ... once.

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

Do hippos grapple? I know they ram and gouge.

This one does
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc1S0NkZU_0

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

What about Gila monsters, beaded lizards, and monitors? I've read that they chew or grind their prey to get the venom/bacterial/whatever into the blood.

I can tell you from first hand experience that monitors chew and grind. One big male savana monitor did it to my hand. Not pleasant.

Monitors and heloderms seem to be in the Born Biter 2 category. A big male argus monitor (10 kg, SM -2) can engulf a jumbo rat (500 g, SM -4) and swallow it whole - so it has at least born biter 1. Lace monitors of about the same size can engulf European rabbits (SM -3), so born biter 2 seems about right.

Monitor biting adaptations seem to be divided into three kinds. The Indo-Australo-Asian monitors probably represent the ancestral trait. They have relatively weak jaws (but still difficult to get off of your hand when they've clamped on) but very strong neck, shoulder, arm, and torso muscles plus a tooth structure called "ziphodont". Ziphodont teeth are shaped like steak knives - blades with serrations along the back and often the front edge, typically recurved toward the rear, and well adapted for slashing through skin, muscle, and tendon. Monitors will bite, and then use their strong necks, arms, shoulders, and backs to thrash. In addition to slamming its victim around, this will rip out large wounds. It also allows the monitor to scavenge large carcases by ripping them apart (the claws also help with this).

The African monitors have very powerful jaws (but still have strong necks, arms, shoulders, and backs) with peg-like teeth. They bite and crush. Bites from these monitors can crush skulls, clams, and snails. They also shake their prey around a lot - cape monitors use bite-crush-shake to kill cobras by breaking their backs in multiple places (mostly by the shaking, but likely also where they bite). Tissue damage is not nearly so severe (which is why I still have all my fingers - savana monitors are from Africa).

Finally, you have the Australian dwarf monitors, which mostly eat insects, spiders, and lizards smaller than themsleves. Their teeth are sharp spikes for piercing and holding - but they still shake their prey around and crush it into the ground just like the larger species.

Heloderms (Gila monsters, beaded lizards) seem to act like the African monitors in this regard. They bite and crush. I don't know about the shaking and thrashing part.

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

Then there are lampreys. They should get, like, BB 4 or something!

they are certainly good at grappling! But they seem to do it more by "nabbing a fold of flesh" than wrapping their mouth around their victims. This argues for another trait than Born Biter.

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

I assume the animal stats on your website are 4E. Are they also intended to go with your house rules?

Yup to 4E. You can check a box to get the house rules version, but by default the stats are as close to RAW as I can get them (with a few custom traits that seem necessary to describe animals).

[QUOTE=Vaevictis Asmadi;1602791]Looking at them, I noticed you gave sabre-tooth casts Born Biter 3. I would argue against that. What I've read is that their long fangs would have been really great for slashing or tearing out the throat, but too fragile for any grappling. I would instead give them the largest type of Teeth but BB 1 at most.

Saber tooth cats had an imense gape. It is thought that they preyed on North America's largest game, from bison to mammoths. We may never know their true feeding strategy, but paleontologists have had informed speculation that they used their unusually powerful build to grapple and restrain prey, and then would tear open the neck or abdomen with their teeth. This probably means they need to get their jaws around the neck or abdomen. The bigger Smilodons were SM 1. Bison are SM 2. Mammoths were SM 4. With born biter 3, a Smilodon could bite open the neck of an adult bison or a young mammoth. Adult mammoths would be too much for them.

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

I would also reduce the advantage for aardwolves.

Good catch! Thanks.

Luke

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

So Born Biter isn't about grappling and holding on for X rounds, but being able to fix Y in your mouth to start with?

There seem to be several variables in how an animal bites:

* Speed of bite (handled by Basic Speed, DX, Combat Reflexes, etc.)
* Venom (handled by Innate Attack, etc.)
* Type of mechanical damage (handled by Teeth)
* Dice of damage (such as from bite force), relative to thrust (only handled by Weak Bite, as far as I know, although increases can be approximated via damage type multipliers, via Teeth)
* How large a chunk of meat you can bite (fit in your mouth) at once (this seems to be what Born Biter is?)
* Ability to hold a bite, grapple or choke hold, vs. attempts to escape the bite grapple (this is affected by bite force, by jaw flexibility (as with snakes), by tooth shape, and by the fragility or strength of the jaw (the jaws of thylacines appear to have been pretty weak for this thing, so that a struggling prey animal had a better chance to break the jaw and thus the hold) (is this what your Gripper advantage does?)

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

There seem to be several variables in how an animal bites:

* Speed of bite (handled by Basic Speed, DX, Combat Reflexes, etc.)
* Venom (handled by Innate Attack, etc.)
* Type of mechanical damage (handled by Teeth)
* Dice of damage (such as from bite force), relative to thrust (only handled by Weak Bite, as far as I know, although increases can be approximated via damage type multipliers, via Teeth)
* How large a chunk of meat you can bite (fit in your mouth) at once (this seems to be what Born Biter is?)

Realistically, the size of the bite you can take is related to damage, in that no matter how strong your jaws, there's a limit to how badly you can hurt things if your mouth is too small.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

* Dice of damage (such as from bite force), relative to thrust (only handled by Weak Bite, as far as I know, although increases can be approximated via damage type multipliers, via Teeth)

According to various GURPS supplements, you can buy Striking ST (bite only, -X%). I usually take a somewhat different route. If the extra damage is due to an extra powerful bite, I take Arm ST for the jaws, and call it Jaw ST (this means that it can also resist attempt to break free from a grapple). If the extra damage is due to the tooth mechanics, I take it as a Striker with a modifier making it apply to a bite.

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

* Ability to hold a bite, grapple or choke hold, vs. attempts to escape the bite grapple (this is affected by bite force, by jaw flexibility (as with snakes), by tooth shape, and by the fragility or strength of the jaw (the jaws of thylacines appear to have been pretty weak for this thing, so that a struggling prey animal had a better chance to break the jaw and thus the hold) (is this what your Gripper advantage does?)

I designed the Gripper advantage for ability to hold on (either with a bite or with other mechanisms, such as an octopus's suckers or a lobster's claws). So far I am not sure how I would handle a fragile jaw.

Luke

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

So far I am not sure how I would handle a fragile jaw.

Luke

Delicately?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

* How large a chunk of meat you can bite (fit in your mouth) at once (this seems to be what Born Biter is?)

That may (or may not) be the thing in the real world that Born Biter models but Born Biter is primarily a game mechanical Trait that determines who (specifically in the form of relative SM)and how well (equivalent of 1 arm or 2) you can Grapple by Biting as well as the ability to attack specific targets such as Veins/Arteries and Vitals by Biting.

I know of no way to directly determine who has Born Biter by physical measurements. The standards haven't been published if they even exist in explicit form (they probably don't).

However, I can deduce the presence of Born Biter after the fact by analyzing the relative sizes of prey taken by Biting. If it's the animal's SM or bigger they have Born Biter. I know of no other way that I consider accurate to do this.