DF Artillery Mages Noodling

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I see your point, but then I'm reminded that warriors have tons of options...

Yep, there's an array of options, and to some extent those options layer and multiply.

This trait gives wizards a little more choice in combat. Yes, they already get to choose spells, but in practice they fall back on a few of those.

In your proposal the wizard is choosing a spell (+a number of rounds to build the spell, and possibly hit location, determined attack, etc.) and dividing some discrete but quite possibly large number of points between 8 different leveled options that cost a different number of points each on the fly. I'm not saying it's impossible, but even a cut down version of the advantage enhancement system is a bit much to juggle in combat.

settle on favorite enhancement bundles.

I'd actually lean towards strongly encouraging them, for the reasons mentioned above. Maybe you pay X points for each Y% worth of enhancement, and then allow a perk for a "combo bonus" for predefined allocations that doubles the total allowed Y for that combo.

I personally think that "toss a blast of energy every turn" is terribly boring, which is why I'm not in love with an approach that goes in that direction.

IME, scouts lurve "shoot an arrow every turn" in combat, so I'm not sure that swapping the fancy bow and quiver of trick arrows for a bandoleer of wands and bevy of missile spells will make it boring.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by martinl

The thing that I have personally experienced, and have seen several complaints about, it the deficit of actions for arty mages. Existing missile spells are more or less built to force ROF 1/2 or lower, and IME that deters their use a lot. Players like to take a significant action every round. Non boss fights tend to be short. Old school delvers in Other Games tended to have the option of one spell per round, and at higher levels as emulated in DF, often just did that. GURPS missile mages don't.

Realistic bows have the same problem but we have Heroic Archer to make a valid archer delver. Scouts don't make other delvers obsolete with their rapid bowfire though, so I don't think rapid "fire"fire would be intrinsically worse if it had a fair CP cost to damage return.

So I guess I'm just saying that I'd like to be able to make throwing a missile spell every turn a reasonable niche for a Wizard. Not overpowered, not niche stealing, but reasonable. It might not be what everyone wants, but I don't think I'm alone either. Not that you need to stop talking about "big arty" here - go ahead. It's just not what I'm interested in."

One option would be to buy the Magical Bolt powerup from DF11 page 37.

It's an out-and-out canonical 'shoot a thing every turn' option. And I do mean 'shoot a thing', as it ~never misses the target.

If you want other forms of every turn shot, you could just mix up variants of that.

[Dammann]

I was just about to post something about Magical Bolt. It is reliable and has RoF 1, and does fairly minor damage. It is perfect for fights with mooks, and fills a niche that the big missile spells don't. You trade power for speed.

My only beef with Magical Bolt is that it isn't on the main template. It seems designed for low-power enemies, so it is a reasonable thing for a more novice Mage to have, as opposed to being something to "level-up" to get.

The advantage proposals at the beginning of the thread are pretty cool, too. I'd split the difference on Kromm's version, and offer it at 2% per level, since the flexibility is likely to be something that gets used less often with more experience. I like the idea of offering some sort of "Fast-Draw" for missile spells, but I feel like the penalty to skill ought to be steeper so that it isn't a go to in every fight. The guy with the rocket launcher just shouldn't be whipping it out so quickly every single time, and a 6d lightning attack feels a lot like a rocket launcher to me.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Dammann

I like the idea of offering some sort of "Fast-Draw" for missile spells, but I feel like the penalty to skill ought to be steeper so that it isn't a go to in every fight. The guy with the rocket launcher just shouldn't be whipping it out so quickly every single time, and a 6d lightning attack feels a lot like a rocket launcher to me.

The -3 is the same penalty that WMs pay for rapid strikes or HAs pay for quick shots, and I like the consistency there. Yet you do have a point - a M6 type cold throw 6d missiles with full Acc every turn until they ran out of energy using the ability I posted.

How about limiting the missiles to Magery/2, round down? Goes with the whole "rushed" theme, and keeps the damage in the same range Scouts of similar point total.

[Dammann]

That might be better, and it brings damage down to the sort of lower level I'd hope for with spells dashed off quickly. The way I like to see it framed is that Wizards either do devastating damage or they plink more rapidly, and halving Magery goes toward that.

Consistency with WM and HA is a laudable goal, too. If everyone is facing a -3, maybe that is the way to go. Since range penalties are also likely to be a factor, maybe it is enough.

I think there is a place for both versions of this advantage. Kromm's version offers an array of customization that is cool, while the martini version offers a way to avoid the issue of Wizards getting a spell ready about a second too late to join the fight. The frantic pace of most minor fights is where I see the real problem, and I am not sure I have seen a solution that I feel especially drawn to use.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Dammann

The frantic pace of most minor fights is where I see the real problem, and I am not sure I have seen a solution that I feel especially drawn to use.

My solution is and has always been to have everybody start out equally in need of prep. Warriors have to draw weapons, ready shields, and close the gap; that takes a turn or two. In the same turn or two, wizards are casting and chucking their Missile spells. The problem arises when you let warriors run around with ready weapons all the time and/or have all fights start at step distance. In my former fantasy campaign, things like a magic sword dropped in the fires of Hell because the PC blew an Acrobatics roll to go from A to B, and major reaction penalties when the PCs weren't sure if the next encounter would be friend or foe, put a stop to carrying weapons in hand. And I've always started combats at 15 yards or so except in surprise situations.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by Dammann

I was just about to post something about Magical Bolt. It is reliable and has RoF 1, and does fairly minor damage. It is perfect for fights with mooks, and fills a niche that the big missile spells don't. You trade power for speed.

My only beef with Magical Bolt is that it isn't on the main template. It seems designed for low-power enemies, so it is a reasonable thing for a more novice Mage to have, as opposed to being something to "level-up" to get.

It ignores DR and, at shorter ranges, can always hit the brain. Despite low damage the injury can be serious.

[b-dog]

What I see is the difference between AD&D Wizards and GURPS Wizards is the balance of power between them and fighters. In GURPS fighters can inflict huge damage every turn while in AD&D fighters did damage by weapon type plus some bonuses thus they did not get to be insta kill PCs like they are in GURPS. Plus monsters had high hit points if they were powerful so fighters in AD&D needed to hack away to kill powerful monsters which in GURPS they can kill them in one shot. The Wizard in AD&D had limited spells but if the Wizard was high level he could nuke a powerful monster while an AD&D fighter would have to steadily hack away if he wanted to kill the same monster. In GURPS this is reversed because fighters can kill powerful monsters easily due to hit locations, ST bonuses and other modifiers. A GURPS Wizard can cast a lot of little spells endlessly helping to undermine the dungeon setting but in combat they aren't able be the gamechanger because it takes a long time to cast powerful spells and because monsters in DF have low Hit Points fighters can take down powerful monsters quickly enough that they do not have wait for a wizard to blast the powerful monster with a missile spell. So the Wizard is reduced to non combat and to casting Information spells endlessly because they can cast them with little energy and thus become a pain in the a $$ for the Dungeon Master trying to keep the dungeon mysterious and exciting.

[Dammann]

Originally Posted by Kromm

My solution is and has always been to have everybody start out equally in need of prep. Warriors have to draw weapons, ready shields, and close the gap; that takes a turn or two.

This is good advice, but most fighter type characters in our game have Fast-Draw. Wizards don't have as easy and obvious a way to shorten the interval between attacks. Further, though warriors may need to draw and close, Wizards need to cast and attack and cast and attack again. The prep a Wizard does will have to be repeated. Archers face this, too, but there are obvious mechanisms in DF to overcome the delay faced by an archer.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

Okay, in that case, +1% seems fair - 50 points for "I can do all sorts of wackiness with my missile spells and choose as I need them, for no extra cost" is a bargain in DF.

Especially if you slap a Gadget Limitation onto it.