DF Artillery Mages Noodling

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

+1% is too expensive - I wouldn't want to pay 50 points to have Explosive Fireball instead of just buying the spell. +5% is probably better - 10 points seems fair, if you have to choose which enhancement you're good at.

To be clear: This affects all your Missile spells, and you choose the enhancements you're using each time you cast, not when you buy the ability. But yeah . . . maybe 1 point per +1% is too steep. At +5%, somebody with Heroic Archer-level points could get +100% in enhancements, which might be too good. I'm not sure.

[A Ladder]

Couldn't it be possible to get Compartmentalized Mind (with whatever -% for missile spells only) so that they could cast and lob fireballs on the same turn.

That's the route I would take.

*I don't have my books on me so I can't look up point cost, but if i remember correctly it would be similar in point total to Heroic Archer + Weapon Master Bow.

[martinl]

I can see some appeal in better replicating the big game changer spells, but IME DF already does that fairly well. A three turn maxxed missile spell from a Magery 6 mage does that nicely, as well as a lot of the area spells.

The thing that I have personally experienced, and have seen several complaints about, it the deficit of actions for arty mages. Existing missile spells are more or less built to force ROF 1/2 or lower, and IME that deters their use a lot. Players like to take a significant action every round. Non boss fights tend to be short. Old school delvers in Other Games tended to have the option of one spell per round, and at higher levels as emulated in DF, often just did that. GURPS missile mages don't.

Realistic bows have the same problem but we have Heroic Archer to make a valid archer delver. Scouts don't make other delvers obsolete with their rapid bowfire though, so I don't think rapid "fire"fire would be intrinsically worse if it had a fair CP cost to damage return.

So I guess I'm just saying that I'd like to be able to make throwing a missile spell every turn a reasonable niche for a Wizard. Not overpowered, not niche stealing, but reasonable. It might not be what everyone wants, but I don't think I'm alone either. Not that you need to stop talking about "big arty" here - go ahead. It's just not what I'm interested in.

All that said, "artillery" might be exactly the wrong word here. "Riflemage" is wrong too though. "Warmage?" "Blaster Mage?" "Missileer?" "Missilseer?"

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by martinl

The thing that I have personally experienced, and have seen several complaints about, it the deficit of actions for arty mages. Existing missile spells are more or less built to force ROF 1/2 or lower, and IME that deters their use a lot. Players like to take a significant action every round. Non boss fights tend to be short. Old school delvers in Other Games tended to have the option of one spell per round, and at higher levels as emulated in DF, often just did that. GURPS missile mages don't.

Realistic bows have the same problem but we have Heroic Archer to make a valid archer delver. Scouts don't make other delvers obsolete with their rapid bowfire though, so I don't think rapid "fire"fire would be intrinsically worse if it had a fair CP cost to damage return.

So I guess I'm just saying that I'd like to be able to make throwing a missile spell every turn a reasonable niche for a Wizard. Not overpowered, not niche stealing, but reasonable. It might not be what everyone wants, but I don't think I'm alone either. Not that you need to stop talking about "big arty" here - go ahead. It's just not what I'm interested in."

One option would be to buy the Magical Bolt powerup from DF11 page 37.

It's an out-and-out canonical 'shoot a thing every turn' option. And I do mean 'shoot a thing', as it ~never misses the target.

If you want other forms of every turn shot, you could just mix up variants of that.

[Dammann]

I was just about to post something about Magical Bolt. It is reliable and has RoF 1, and does fairly minor damage. It is perfect for fights with mooks, and fills a niche that the big missile spells don't. You trade power for speed.

My only beef with Magical Bolt is that it isn't on the main template. It seems designed for low-power enemies, so it is a reasonable thing for a more novice Mage to have, as opposed to being something to "level-up" to get.

The advantage proposals at the beginning of the thread are pretty cool, too. I'd split the difference on Kromm's version, and offer it at 2% per level, since the flexibility is likely to be something that gets used less often with more experience. I like the idea of offering some sort of "Fast-Draw" for missile spells, but I feel like the penalty to skill ought to be steeper so that it isn't a go to in every fight. The guy with the rocket launcher just shouldn't be whipping it out so quickly every single time, and a 6d lightning attack feels a lot like a rocket launcher to me.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Dammann

I like the idea of offering some sort of "Fast-Draw" for missile spells, but I feel like the penalty to skill ought to be steeper so that it isn't a go to in every fight. The guy with the rocket launcher just shouldn't be whipping it out so quickly every single time, and a 6d lightning attack feels a lot like a rocket launcher to me.

The -3 is the same penalty that WMs pay for rapid strikes or HAs pay for quick shots, and I like the consistency there. Yet you do have a point - a M6 type cold throw 6d missiles with full Acc every turn until they ran out of energy using the ability I posted.

How about limiting the missiles to Magery/2, round down? Goes with the whole "rushed" theme, and keeps the damage in the same range Scouts of similar point total.

[Dammann]

That might be better, and it brings damage down to the sort of lower level I'd hope for with spells dashed off quickly. The way I like to see it framed is that Wizards either do devastating damage or they plink more rapidly, and halving Magery goes toward that.

Consistency with WM and HA is a laudable goal, too. If everyone is facing a -3, maybe that is the way to go. Since range penalties are also likely to be a factor, maybe it is enough.

I think there is a place for both versions of this advantage. Kromm's version offers an array of customization that is cool, while the martini version offers a way to avoid the issue of Wizards getting a spell ready about a second too late to join the fight. The frantic pace of most minor fights is where I see the real problem, and I am not sure I have seen a solution that I feel especially drawn to use.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by Dammann

I was just about to post something about Magical Bolt. It is reliable and has RoF 1, and does fairly minor damage. It is perfect for fights with mooks, and fills a niche that the big missile spells don't. You trade power for speed.

My only beef with Magical Bolt is that it isn't on the main template. It seems designed for low-power enemies, so it is a reasonable thing for a more novice Mage to have, as opposed to being something to "level-up" to get.

It ignores DR and, at shorter ranges, can always hit the brain. Despite low damage the injury can be serious.

[b-dog]

What I see is the difference between AD&D Wizards and GURPS Wizards is the balance of power between them and fighters. In GURPS fighters can inflict huge damage every turn while in AD&D fighters did damage by weapon type plus some bonuses thus they did not get to be insta kill PCs like they are in GURPS. Plus monsters had high hit points if they were powerful so fighters in AD&D needed to hack away to kill powerful monsters which in GURPS they can kill them in one shot. The Wizard in AD&D had limited spells but if the Wizard was high level he could nuke a powerful monster while an AD&D fighter would have to steadily hack away if he wanted to kill the same monster. In GURPS this is reversed because fighters can kill powerful monsters easily due to hit locations, ST bonuses and other modifiers. A GURPS Wizard can cast a lot of little spells endlessly helping to undermine the dungeon setting but in combat they aren't able be the gamechanger because it takes a long time to cast powerful spells and because monsters in DF have low Hit Points fighters can take down powerful monsters quickly enough that they do not have wait for a wizard to blast the powerful monster with a missile spell. So the Wizard is reduced to non combat and to casting Information spells endlessly because they can cast them with little energy and thus become a pain in the a $$ for the Dungeon Master trying to keep the dungeon mysterious and exciting.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Kromm

To be clear: This affects all your Missile spells, and you choose the enhancements you're using each time you cast, not when you buy the ability. But yeah . . . maybe 1 point per +1% is too steep. At +5%, somebody with Heroic Archer-level points could get +100% in enhancements, which might be too good. I'm not sure.

Okay, in that case, +1% seems fair - 50 points for "I can do all sorts of wackiness with my missile spells and choose as I need them, for no extra cost" is a bargain in DF.