Martial arts for and against Neanderthals

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Our spatial sense isn't something to brag to other primates about. Our running is great as long as you don't care about moving at a glacial pace.

We might move at a glacial pace, but we can keep it up for many hours with a bit of practice. Back in high school, anybody could beat my 5' 2" body in a sprint, but give me even two miles and the jocks would be eating my nerd dust. I love cross country running. One of the few sports I was really good at.

Humans have used this to hunt, driving their game to exhaustion.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Consistient patterns battlefield injuries (beyond "they all got maced to the head"; "Mace to The Head" isn't a meaningful formal style). Ruins of training schools.

You do realize that nicely fossilized specimens are such a small percentage of the population that it might be difficult to make an accurate statement about this.

I don't believe in real cave-man kung-fu, but it might make an interesting game.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Aren't Martial Arts themselves TL2 or so? I don't think you really have formal styles before that. I suppose you could have TL0^ or TL0+2 Martial Arts.

"Martial Arts defines a “martial art” as any systematically taught fighting style used for any purpose – combative or otherwise."

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

"Martial Arts defines a “martial art” as any systematically taught fighting style used for any purpose – combative or otherwise."

That's why I think sports almost certainly were taught by some ancient tribes. Combat versions probably not as war is more of a TL 1 thing, I think.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

You do realize that nicely fossilized specimens are such a small percentage of the population that it might be difficult to make an accurate statement about this.

The burden of proof isn't with me. I claim that Martial Arts are probably a TL1 invention. I submit institutions like the Agoge as proof. The claim that Martial Arts are TL0 inventions is the one that needs to submit evidence. Even a Amazon tribe with a systematic fighting school would do.

I don't believe in real cave-man kung-fu, but it might make an interesting game.

Which is, I suspect, TL0+1. No problem there.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

"Martial Arts defines a “martial art” as any systematically taught fighting style used for any purpose – combative or otherwise."

Yes, and? Systematic fighting had to be invented at some point. I'm suggesting it was invented in the Bronze Age.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That's why I think sports almost certainly were taught by some ancient tribes. Combat versions probably not as war is more of a TL 1 thing, I think.

I'm not saying that TL0 can't learn Wrestling. I'm saying that they don't have a systemic style of wrestling, or formal schools of wrestling.

[Dangerious P. Cats]

I would suggest that any culture with an experience of warfare would have some kind of martial arts.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

...
Yes, and? Systematic fighting had to be invented at some point. I'm suggesting it was invented in the Bronze Age.

For whatever reason, I sometimes have difficulty discerning when you are providing and opinion or conjecture vs when you're making an assertion about GURPS.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

... I'm not saying that TL0 can't learn Wrestling. I'm saying that they don't have a systemic style of wrestling, or formal schools of wrestling.

Note that the rules say 'systematically taught'. It seems like your interpretation requires something more elaborate.

[Verjigorm]

I'm with Puddin on this: TL0 societies don't seem like they have the institutions needed for a Martial Art.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

For whatever reason, I sometimes have difficulty discerning when you are providing and opinion or conjecture vs when you're making an assertion about GURPS.

There isn't anything in print that says "Martial Arts are a TL1 invention" as far as I know, no. However, there is the general rule that an invention's TL is the TL at which it can be shown through historical or archeological data that it was a mature technology as opposed to a toy, demonstration, or prototype.

However it occurs to me that I may be wrong. I had forgotten about Mesoamerican warrior societies (particularly those of the Aztec Empire) which were clearly systematically trained in formal styles at TL0. Although maybe it's better to consider the Mesoamerican civilizations to be Advanced in Political Organization or whatever as well as in Mathematics and so on. Low-Tech Companion 1 suggests the State is a TL1 invention as well.

Note that the rules say 'systematically taught'. It seems like your interpretation requires something more elaborate.

I don't think so. Style Familiarity means that not only are you trained in a coherent system of fighting, but that somebody who has never met you can possibly identify that style by observing you fight and use that knowledge to predict your actions. It is possible for two different people, trained by different masters, to have the same Style Familiarity. For societies organized as Bands or Tribes, with a purely oral tradition of teaching, and no formal dedicated warriors or soldiers it seems very unlikely that this kind of systemic training to be common enough to be considered a mature technology.