Martial arts for and against Neanderthals

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Cave paintings of people wrestling?

But the shapeshifting shamans and "space suited aliens" prove what exactly? Or that poor Venus of Willendorf with no face or feet and WalMart customer level rotundity? But I get the point. ;)

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

There are some theories that would have you remove spear throwing, and maybe running. Neanderthals may have only used spears for thrusting, not throwing. They may also have been considerably less agile and less efficient in motion than modern humans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/prog..._summary.shtml

Now that you mention it, I remember that now. It makes sense -- why fight game when you can wound or kill it from afar? So I'd take out Spear Throwing.

Running however, I'd be more inclined to keep. We've seen persistent biases against fleetness of prehistoric creatures get punctured. I'd think if you're going to attack large game, you need to be able to catch up to it.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Now that you mention it, I remember that now. It makes sense -- why fight game when you can wound or kill it from afar? So I'd take out Spear Throwing.

Running however, I'd be more inclined to keep. We've seen persistent biases against fleetness of prehistoric creatures get punctured. I'd think if you're going to attack large game, you need to be able to catch up to it.

There's good evidence that no other hominid other than modern anatomical humans were such freakishly good distance runners.
Neanderthals may have been better sprinters though.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

There are some theories that would have you remove spear throwing, and maybe running. Neanderthals may have only used spears for thrusting, not throwing. They may also have been considerably less agile and less efficient in motion than modern humans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/prog..._summary.shtml

However, in a TL3 setting living with humans who could teach them how to throw a spear and having high quality spears compared to TL0 ones, it would be easier for them to learn.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

However, in a TL3 setting living with humans who could teach them how to throw a spear and having high quality spears compared to TL0 ones, it would be easier for them to learn.

It's not an issue of "too stupid to throw things" - it's an issue of "anatomically not well designed to throw things" and possibly "missing the neurological visual post-processing areas necessary to throw accurately".

All the great apes and lots of monkeys throw things. They're also generally really innacurate and (for their strength and arm length) weak throwers, due to the structural design of the wrist (and to a lesser extent the fingers and thumb).

The cock of the wrist and snap of it at the arc of the throw with the spear gives it the speed, the way you release your grip gives the spin for accuracy, and you have to be able to contort your wrist the right way to throw the spear pointy-end forwards, rather than sort of slipshod diagonal.

Throwing things is even more fascinating a problem, because signals from the brain to release the object can't technically arrive in your hand by the time you need to release it; there's a whole lot of forward anticipation and planning in throwing things effectively.

Humans appear to be unusually well designed and wired up for the ability to throw complex things (like spears and throwing sticks), never mind our fabulous ability to throw small roundish objects like rocks and baseballs. There's really no question that we've evolved adaptations to make ourselves better at it than, say, austrolapithicus, but there's reasonably good anatomical evidence that we outpace even close relatives, like Neandertals. Possibly we had to specialize a little in chucking, being less robust than them and thus not quite as well equipped to go toe-to-toe with a mammoth.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

This thread isn't about what actually happened in history.

Figleaf23 mentioned TL0 Martial Arts. I said that I suspect that Martial Arts are TL1 (well I said TL2, but then I remembered the Agoge). Tech Levels are always "about what actually happened in history". If Martial Arts are a TL1 invention then prehistoric Martial Arts are TL0+1.

Not to mention how does skill fossilize?

Consistient patterns battlefield injuries (beyond "they all got maced to the head"; "Mace to The Head" isn't a meaningful formal style). Ruins of training schools.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Bruno

...
Humans appear to be unusually well designed and wired up for ...

... quite a list of things, actually.

Running, throwing, swimming/diving, language, spatial sense, digital manipulation ...

[Flyndaran]

Our spatial sense isn't something to brag to other primates about. Our running is great as long as you don't care about moving at a glacial pace.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Our spatial sense isn't something to brag to other primates about.

For ground-bound primates it is; ours seems to be decently in the same range as tree-branch hopping primates, which is excellent. Can't really sneer at our sense of balance either, teetering about on two legs like we do.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

... quite a list of things, actually.

Running, throwing, swimming/diving, language, spatial sense, digital manipulation ...

I've heard it described that we're heavily specialized in living in a changing, unstable environment. We're a go-anywhere eat-anything species, and as far as company in that group there's not many - dogs, rats, cockroaches, and notably we really dislike two of those and have some mixed feelings about dogs... (ask anyone in an area with a real feral dog population about dogs...)