Martial arts for and against Neanderthals

[Flyndaran]

Male neanderthals were around 5'3". Most humans are intimidated more by height than strength. But I guess the lower center of balance might help in real life if below Gurps granularity.

[Figleaf23]

I'm kind of intrigued by the idea of a Neanderthal martial art at their prehistoric tech level.

I'm thinking it would evolve from their hunting practices, in particular, taking large game.

Core Skills: Spear, Brawling, Tracking, Running, [Edit: Questionable - Spear Throwing]

Techniques:

Attack from Above
Breakfall^
Evade^
Trip^
Sweep (Spear or Brawling)
Tartgetted Attack: (Spear Thrust/Neck-Veins)
Close Combat (Spear)
Eye Gouging (Brawling)
Flying Lunge

Perks:
Grip Mastery (Spear)
Skill Adaptation (Listed wrestling techniques^ default from Brawling)
Teamwork

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I'm kind of intrigued by the idea of a Neanderthal martial art at their prehistoric tech level.

Aren't Martial Arts themselves TL2 or so? I don't think you really have formal styles before that. I suppose you could have TL0^ or TL0+2 Martial Arts.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Aren't Martial Arts themselves TL2 or so? I don't think you really have formal styles before that. I suppose you could have TL0^ or TL0+2 Martial Arts.

Many TL 0 societies do have lots of free time, but without war or concentrated tribal fighting, there wouldn't be much need for pure combat forms.
Classic wrestling and tests of strength would likely be the most realistic.

[Mr_Sandman]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I'm kind of intrigued by the idea of a Neanderthal martial art at their prehistoric tech level.

I'm thinking it would evolve from their hunting practices, in particular, taking large game.

Core Skills: Spear, Spear Throwing, Brawling, Tracking, Running

Techniques:

Attack from Above
Breakfall^
Evade^
Trip^
Sweep (Spear or Brawling)
Tartgetted Attack: (Spear Thrust/Neck-Veins)
Close Combat (Spear)
Eye Gouging (Brawling)
Flying Lunge

Perks:
Grip Mastery (Spear)
Skill Adaptation (Listed wrestling techniques^ default from Brawling)
Teamwork

There are some theories that would have you remove spear throwing, and maybe running. Neanderthals may have only used spears for thrusting, not throwing. They may also have been considerably less agile and less efficient in motion than modern humans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/prog..._summary.shtml

[tbone]

This is a little tangential, but I posted thoughts on gaming PCs in the GURPS Madlands (a.k.a. Fantasy II) setting. Those PCs aren't Neanderthals, and they battle supernatural horrors instead of mastodons, but they're subsistence hunters/farmers with technology not far above prehistoric levels. There are similarities.

http://www.gamesdiner.com/2013/03/ga...ch-pcs-part-ii

I include a list of appropriate skills and techniques (to which Figleaf23's list of technique suggestions make a nice addition), covering hunting, fishing, and survival, as well as combat. Minor point of interest: If the Madlanders (or Neanderthals) don't engage in "soldiering" or other explicit martial training, and instead primarily have fighting ability as an extension of hunting skills, then a package of combat skills without the 1-point Style Familiarity that turns the abilities into a codified "martial art" is arguably the way to go. That'd make a concrete difference in the fighting methods of Neanderthals vs trained "modern" soldiers, even if not a big one in mechanical terms. (That's my "feel", anyway, for Neanderthal or other hunter-based fighting methods. No argument with anyone who prefers full-out martial arts for our prehistoric cousins!)

One more thing: I've also long wanted some way for characters – especially hunters – to display special experience and expertise in battling specific types of creatures. A Neanderthal might not have the battlefield skills of a trained soldier, but might outshine the soldier when it came to, say, predicting the movements of a cave bear and efficiently taking it down. I've taken a very experimental shot at that too:

http://www.gamesdiner.com/2013/04/bu...at-familiarity

I hope those links might be of interest in pondering Neanderthal design overall, even if they're a bit off from your key question (how Neanderthals would battle modern humans).

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

In a world where Neanderthals still existed, at least as far as the middle ages (so about TL3), and fought with modern humans how would both the humans and Neanderthal martial arts be affected?

How would they exist unless you assume the two groups are not interbreedable?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Many TL 0 societies do have lots of free time, but without war or concentrated tribal fighting, there wouldn't be much need for pure combat forms.
Classic wrestling and tests of strength would likely be the most realistic.

It's not about free time. It's about the invention of formalized schools of fighting and regimented training programs. Which is at least as early as the Agoge (which means I should of said TL1) but it had to be invented at some point. It requires a level of social organization that coincides with cities.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It's not about free time. It's about the invention of formalized schools of fighting and regimented training programs. Which is at least as early as the Agoge (which means I should of said TL1) but it had to be invented at some point. It requires a level of social organization that coincides with cities.

Feudalism is sufficient for that.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It's not about free time. It's about the invention of formalized schools of fighting and regimented training programs. Which is at least as early as the Agoge (which means I should of said TL1) but it had to be invented at some point. It requires a level of social organization that coincides with cities.

That sounds more like requiring population densities that coincide with cities among humans in our history. The classic monastery created forms could instead relate to loose mouth of river / small rich hunting ground type communities without quite pushing into TL 1, in my opinion.