Martial arts for and against Neanderthals

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Aren't Martial Arts themselves TL2 or so? I don't think you really have formal styles before that. I suppose you could have TL0^ or TL0+2 Martial Arts.

Many TL 0 societies do have lots of free time, but without war or concentrated tribal fighting, there wouldn't be much need for pure combat forms.
Classic wrestling and tests of strength would likely be the most realistic.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Aren't Martial Arts themselves TL2 or so? I don't think you really have formal styles before that. I suppose you could have TL0^ or TL0+2 Martial Arts.

"Martial Arts defines a “martial art” as any systematically taught fighting style used for any purpose – combative or otherwise."

[Mr_Sandman]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I'm kind of intrigued by the idea of a Neanderthal martial art at their prehistoric tech level.

I'm thinking it would evolve from their hunting practices, in particular, taking large game.

Core Skills: Spear, Spear Throwing, Brawling, Tracking, Running

Techniques:

Attack from Above
Breakfall^
Evade^
Trip^
Sweep (Spear or Brawling)
Tartgetted Attack: (Spear Thrust/Neck-Veins)
Close Combat (Spear)
Eye Gouging (Brawling)
Flying Lunge

Perks:
Grip Mastery (Spear)
Skill Adaptation (Listed wrestling techniques^ default from Brawling)
Teamwork

There are some theories that would have you remove spear throwing, and maybe running. Neanderthals may have only used spears for thrusting, not throwing. They may also have been considerably less agile and less efficient in motion than modern humans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/prog..._summary.shtml

[tbone]

This is a little tangential, but I posted thoughts on gaming PCs in the GURPS Madlands (a.k.a. Fantasy II) setting. Those PCs aren't Neanderthals, and they battle supernatural horrors instead of mastodons, but they're subsistence hunters/farmers with technology not far above prehistoric levels. There are similarities.

http://www.gamesdiner.com/2013/03/ga...ch-pcs-part-ii

I include a list of appropriate skills and techniques (to which Figleaf23's list of technique suggestions make a nice addition), covering hunting, fishing, and survival, as well as combat. Minor point of interest: If the Madlanders (or Neanderthals) don't engage in "soldiering" or other explicit martial training, and instead primarily have fighting ability as an extension of hunting skills, then a package of combat skills without the 1-point Style Familiarity that turns the abilities into a codified "martial art" is arguably the way to go. That'd make a concrete difference in the fighting methods of Neanderthals vs trained "modern" soldiers, even if not a big one in mechanical terms. (That's my "feel", anyway, for Neanderthal or other hunter-based fighting methods. No argument with anyone who prefers full-out martial arts for our prehistoric cousins!)

One more thing: I've also long wanted some way for characters – especially hunters – to display special experience and expertise in battling specific types of creatures. A Neanderthal might not have the battlefield skills of a trained soldier, but might outshine the soldier when it came to, say, predicting the movements of a cave bear and efficiently taking it down. I've taken a very experimental shot at that too:

http://www.gamesdiner.com/2013/04/bu...at-familiarity

I hope those links might be of interest in pondering Neanderthal design overall, even if they're a bit off from your key question (how Neanderthals would battle modern humans).

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

There are some theories that would have you remove spear throwing, and maybe running. Neanderthals may have only used spears for thrusting, not throwing. They may also have been considerably less agile and less efficient in motion than modern humans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/prog..._summary.shtml

Now that you mention it, I remember that now. It makes sense -- why fight game when you can wound or kill it from afar? So I'd take out Spear Throwing.

Running however, I'd be more inclined to keep. We've seen persistent biases against fleetness of prehistoric creatures get punctured. I'd think if you're going to attack large game, you need to be able to catch up to it.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

There are some theories that would have you remove spear throwing, and maybe running. Neanderthals may have only used spears for thrusting, not throwing. They may also have been considerably less agile and less efficient in motion than modern humans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/prog..._summary.shtml

However, in a TL3 setting living with humans who could teach them how to throw a spear and having high quality spears compared to TL0 ones, it would be easier for them to learn.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

In a world where Neanderthals still existed, at least as far as the middle ages (so about TL3), and fought with modern humans how would both the humans and Neanderthal martial arts be affected?

How would they exist unless you assume the two groups are not interbreedable?

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

In a world where Neanderthals still existed, at least as far as the middle ages (so about TL3), and fought with modern humans how would both the humans and Neanderthal martial arts be affected?

I don't see any reason why it should be different to fight a Neanderthal instead of a Human. Nor even fantasy-style humanoids such as Dwarves, Orcs or Elves. Humans already vary a lot, in terms of body size, musculature and so forth.

I do see some simulative value in making it a special kind of training to be able to attack or defend against foes of exotic morphology, such as quadropeds (although not for attacking with missile weapons), but in GURPs terms that's just a Perk, or a couple of Perks, or a Technique (probably an Average one).