GURPS Magery & Base Skill

[Laughing Man]

Originally Posted by ronalmb

the "Fuzzy Grey" for me is that the wording for Magery was not as clear and precise for me as I would have liked.

This exactly was my problem as well and personally I am still on the fence about the whole thing. Here is why:

Magery helps with the Learning of a spell. So I look up the rules for learning a spell on page 235 under "Learning Magic". Ok, there it is explained in detail how exactly Magery helps me with learning spells. Among other things, it adds to IQ, so I can learn as if I had a higher IQ. That would help me, if a spell has a prerequisite of IQ 15 and I only have IQ 13, as far as I understand. I can see that.

People here say that if you learn the spell with a higher IQ (due to Magery), you also can cast it at that higher level, because Magery is a bonus to the underlying trait. Why is that? I never read of that. Is there any reference in the books to this statement? Please give me a page number for that. If not, I have to assume it is just a personal interpretation and not really a fact.
When I look at the "Skill" chapter, I read the following: You learn a skill (or a spell in this case) at a relative level. Once a skill is learned, you use it with that relative level. Thus the absolute value of the skill depends on the attribute it is based on at the time you are using the skill, not at the time you learned the skill. So it doesn't matter how high your IQ was when you learned the skill. Am I wrong? Where is it stated otherwise? Please give me a page number for that.

So let's look at the "Casting Spells" chapter on page 235, WHY is there not even a single reference to Magery under "Casting Spells"? If Magery would be added to IQ when casting a spell, why don't they even mention it once in the chapter which specifically targets that topic? Like in the "Ritual Magic" chapter of the Thaumatology book, where they say "Magery adds to core skill, path skills and spells". There is no such statement under "Casting Spells" in the Basic Set, nowhere. Why is that? Without such a statement it feels like most people here are just interpreting it in their own way, to get the advantage of additional skill points when casting their spells.

Last but not least, isn't it possible for some GURPS writer to show mercy and to clarify that problem? That would be the easiest and most efficient way of solving this whole situation.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Last but not least, isn't it possible for some GURPS writer to show mercy and to clarify that problem? That would be the easiest and most efficient way of solving this whole situation.

I am a GURPS writer. I'm not in any way responsible for the core rules, but among other things I've written a couple of books and some Pyramid articles containing spell-casting character write-ups. That's how I've always understood the rule, that's how I composed the write-ups, and that's always had the approval of the editorial staff, including the line editor, who is ultimately responsible for all interpretations.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Last but not least, isn't it possible for some GURPS writer to show mercy and to clarify that problem? That would be the easiest and most efficient way of solving this whole situation.

They have (though what you're really asking for is a GURPS editor, not a writer). Unfortunately, I don't have a quote from Kromm or PK on the subject - but I do have examples that they wrote that interpret the situation in this way.

Probably the biggest example is the entire Dungeon Fantasy book series. DF1 was written by Kromm, the primary GURPS line editor and thus the man who ultimately decides what the rules are intended to mean. In this is, among other things, the Wizard template, which has a number of spells and Magery. In that template, it is explicitly stated that each of the Wizard's spells gets a +3 bonus from its 3 levels of Magery.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

People here say that if you learn the spell with a higher IQ (due to Magery), you also can cast it at that higher level, because Magery is a bonus to the underlying trait. Why is that? I never read of that. Is there any reference in the books to this statement? Please give me a page number for that. If not, I have to assume it is just a personal interpretation and not really a fact.

p. B66 "Add your Magery to IQ when you learn spells. For instance, if you have IQ 14, Magery 3 lets you learn spells as if you had IQ 17."
Powers p. 131 "At the GM's option, the Magery advantage (p. B66) gives +1 to standard spells and Magical abilities."
Thaumatology p. 20 "although raising IQ while reducing Per and Will has a similar effect to increasing Magery"

I feel that I maybe I don't really understand your question. What would "learn spells as if you had IQ 17" mean unless it means that Magery adds to IQ for learning spells?

At any rate this is the way I've done it since 3e. It is the way everybody on the forums seems to do it. The way that Prof. Headley is written on p. B315. It's the way GCA does it. If that's wrong, everybody including whoever made Headley (Ken Hite?) is wrong.

Last but not least, isn't it possible for some GURPS writer to show mercy and to clarify that problem? That would be the easiest and most efficient way of solving this whole situation.

Matt doesn't count? Do you want a specific GURPS writer or something?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

. Is there any reference in the books to this statement? Please give me a page number for that. If not, I have to assume it is just a personal interpretation and not really a fact.
.

If the word of _everyone_ who's played Gurps for 25 years isn't good enough for you perhaps the Mage Template on p.260 of Characters will be.

Look at the example Skill levels for the Spells. The calculated levels include the bonus for the character's Magery 2 and are marked with a "dagger" diacritical mark which directs you to a note saying exactly that.

This is how you record levels with Spells and this is the number you roll against if no modifiers apply.

You want to blame something try the lack of an example character who uses the default Magic system in Basic or Magic. There were such characters in earlier versions (and even a whole Wizards book) and this might be why all old players are so sure about how to do it.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Please give me a page number for that.

Every mage printed in any official product over the last three decades.

[Laughing Man]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You want to blame something try the lack of an example character who uses the default Magic system in Basic or Magic. There were such characters in earlier versions (and even a whole Wizards book) and this might be why all old players are so sure about how to do it.

I do not want to blame anyone, that is not my intention. I cried out "WHY" only because I was confused to why I am still misunderstanding the whole thing. I take things very literal and maybe that was my problem here, since english isn't my mother tongue and I am prone to failure.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I feel that I maybe I don't really understand your question. What would "learn spells as if you had IQ 17" mean unless it means that Magery adds to IQ for learning spells?

It would mean exactly that, helping with the learning of spells, like detailed on page 235. But not with the casting itself, like detailed on page 235. But with all the examples and premade characters, it is very obvious that I am wrong.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Matt doesn't count? Do you want a specific GURPS writer or something?

I do not know what you are talking about or who Matt is. I am not on a first name basis with anyone here.

Originally Posted by RyanW

Every mage printed in any official product over the last three decades.

I have never looked at any premade characters. That is very helpful, I should have done that beforehand, thanks.

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

I am a GURPS writer. I'm not in any way responsible for the core rules, but [...]

Thanks to you, too. :)

Ok, now it is very obvious to me, that I am wrong, since the premade characters and templates are working this way. I still am confused about the wording of the rule, but that may be due to a lack of comprehension for the english language.

So THANK YOU, everybody who wasted his time for a fool like me, now I can play in peace :)

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

It would mean exactly that, helping with the learning of spells, like detailed on page 235. But not with the casting itself, like detailed on page 235. But with all the examples and premade characters, it is very obvious that I am wrong.

however the sentice right before it says it for bout learning and using. The reason it's not under casting, is becuase it fallows the same rules of Determining Base Skill and Effective Skill as defined under the general Skill chapter... Remeber Spells are skills so those rules apply unless otherwise stated.

Where it states the Base skill in the Attribute + Relative Skill.

Think about it when learning skills it doesn't matter what the Attribute level is when it comes to price so what effect do you think increasing that attribute for learning does if it doesn't increase the Base skill as it has no effect on Relative skill.

[Kromm]

For those who need an official statement: You base magic spells on IQ + Magery as if that sum were your IQ. When any rule says to add an advantage level to an attribute for the purpose of learning a skill of any kind, the meaning is that you use attribute + advantage level in place of the raw attribute for all purposes.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

I do not know what you are talking about or who Matt is. I am not on a first name basis with anyone here.

Turhan's Bay Company is Matt Riggsby, who is a GURPS writer.