Cosmic vs. Cosmic (ala Kryptonian vs. Kryptonian?)

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It doesn't bypass the DR. But the Cosmic doesn't do anything to it.

Exactly. It's not that it bypasses the DR, it still needs to go through it (although it might have some Armor Divisor on it, I suppose, that would make that easier), but getting through it is not made any more difficult by having it be Cosmic.

I suppose you could house rule it to work the other way around, if you wanted, although +50% would then be pretty ridiculously cheap. There was a thread some time ago where somebody had a similar misunderstanding about Hardened, thinking it effectively multiplied the value of DR for all attacks, as opposed to just counteracting Armor Divisor.... which past a certain point, of course, would be massively more effective than buying more DR.

[David Johnston2]

Incidentally, I long ago decided that I was going to just say that comic book nukes are just plain less lethal than the real thing. It helps that radiation isn't much of a bad thing in comic books.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

conventional artillery bypasses Cosmic DR?

Adding the defensive "Cosmic" enhancement to DR does nothing except allow it to protect against Cosmic attacks. That's all the enhancement does.

Abe has DR 30 with no modifiers.
Bob has DR 30 (Cosmic, +50%).

Both of them are hit by a divine ray of force: Crushing Attack 10d (Cosmic, Irresistible attack, +300%). The ray of force rolls 35 points of basic damage. Abe's DR is ignored completely because the divine ray is Cosmic, so he takes the full 35 points of damage. Bob's DR protects him normally, so he only takes 5 points.

Both of them heal up, and later on, they're both hit by a 10d sniper rifle for 35 points of basic damage. Abe's normal DR protects him, but he still takes 5 points of damage. Bob's Cosmic DR protects him, but he still takes 5 points of damage. Because the sniper rifle isn't Cosmic in any way, the two men's DR protects them equally well.

Is that clear?

[LemmingLord]

I'd say Clark does not have cosmic but just a very high dr. Magic attack bypass his dr all the time.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

I'd say Clark does not have cosmic but just a very high dr. Magic attack bypass his dr all the time.

And has a specific vulnerability to such attacks. Kryptonian DR (or Damage Reduction as the case may be) should include a limitation based on how common Magic is in the game world.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Remember that things like "Common," "Occasional," and "Rare" are shorthand for "Common as an attack," "An occasionally encountered creature," and "Rare as an environmental condition." They are pegged to the context of specific advantages and disadvantages. Use, say, the rarities set for Detect or Neutralize with DR at your peril. My general feeling is that DR with a "hole" against something ought to get -15% for a Very Common flaw, -10% for a Common one, -5% for an Occasional one, and just be a quirk for a Rare one.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

I'd say Clark does not have cosmic but just a very high dr. Magic attack bypass his dr all the time.

Not sure how this is relevant - "Cosmic" is not the same as "magic-proof".

Seriously though, one of the unavoidable weaknesses in GURPS is that it is oriented towards small, realistic characters. Superman had very specific vulnerabilities, but was invulnerable to everything else. Even with Damage Reduction 4, the amount of DR needed to model Superman is still obscene - you could give him Damage Reduction 4, DR 1000, and still not get to the point where you are really touching on the resistance he showed in comic books. Likewise with ST.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Even with Damage Reduction 4

4? Superman plausibly has somewhere between damage reduction 1,000, cosmic (no minimum damage) [675] and DR 10,000, cosmic (no minimum damage) [900].

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Anthony

4? Superman plausibly has somewhere between damage reduction 1,000, cosmic (no minimum damage) [675] and DR 10,000, cosmic (no minimum damage) [900].

Actually, leave off the Cosmic (Round Down), use the savings to bump up Damage Resistance a bit, and you get the very true to comics effect of him getting about the same momentarily fazed effect from a good roll with an RPG, a mortar round, a blockbuster, and so on, even though they do vastly different damage.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Not sure how this is relevant - "Cosmic" is not the same as "magic-proof".

Seriously though, one of the unavoidable weaknesses in GURPS is that it is oriented towards small, realistic characters. Superman had very specific vulnerabilities, but was invulnerable to everything else. Even with Damage Reduction 4, the amount of DR needed to model Superman is still obscene - you could give him Damage Reduction 4, DR 1000, and still not get to the point where you are really touching on the resistance he showed in comic books. Likewise with ST.

IT:DR (/1,500,000,000,000; Bane (Occasional), -5%) [1,733.75, rounded up to 1,734]

... and ...

DR 70 (Hardened 5, +100%; Bane (Occasional), -5%) [507.4, rounded up to 508]

... should cover his maximum toughness for a reasonable point cost. For certain values of reasonable, anywise. Heh.

Superman can theoretically handle an exploding star. An exploding star annihilates (down to -HPx10) itself and its' planetary system. Sol System has roughly HP 131,005,035,606 as a diffuse/homogenous object given it's mass and so would require 1,441,055,391,667 injury to be inflicted on it to destroy the whole thing.

He has a reasonable amount of Super-ST, various Innate Attacks, Flight, a heavily modified Ultra Power and a handful of other specific traits. Roughly a 5000-point character.

[Ragabash Moon]

Well, overall as I said, I'm not so much wanting to model Superman or even a Kryptonian's level of power, so much as giving basically the D&D thing that you can bypass your own DR on others, which is really what it amounts to. If you have DR/silver then your natural weapons (which a punch is, essentially, even if it just does nonlethal normally) count as DR/silver vs other creatures with DR/silver damage reduction.

That's really kind of what I am trying to do here. As I've said again, make it so that vs. a normal human they are nearly invincible, but vs. each other they are treated as just normal humans...

The only other way I could think of is create some new crazy limitation where when hitting a fellow Kryptonian their ST is normalized (except for knockback) and their DR and all other defensive is removed completely (again, except for vs. secondary effects, the punch might break their nose, but sending them through the reactor, no problem). Or maybe give them really high HP and such to be able to handle the levels of damage they'll be dealing to each other, and then just put Cosmic (Irresistable) on all their attacks? It'll bypass all DR, yet they have the HP to soak it up.. for awhile at least.

Except... how do you put Cosmic on ST now? Since they got rid of the whole "Super ST" discounty rules?