Cosmic vs. Cosmic (ala Kryptonian vs. Kryptonian?)

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

Well, right but a Kryptonian is looking at benchmarking DR. Back in 3rd edition there was "Invincible" for 300pts. Which was essentially DR Infinity. Totally broken, so 4th ed you benchmark it so the most damage they could possibly take as your DR. Or, since you want them to all be on a level playing field, say average? So, say the average Kryptonian has a 30d6 punch, then you need 90 points of DR for the average punch to get through the average DR. But, the DR needs to still be high enough to reflect the fact that the Kryptonian can pretty much take a Rocket Propelled Grenade to the face. I mean, really the only threat to Superman is other supers on his level. Assuming he's not near kryptonite of course. Other Kryptonians, BRANIAC, Phantom Zoners, Martian Manhunter... they're on his level. A nuclear missile? Might give him a suntan.

So then better wording of my question I guess is, would it be overkill to put cosmic on the DR, or Cosmic on the attacks? Or both? So they negate each other, but a kryptonian can punch through a steel vault like it's tissue paper because they are ignoring the DR?

Now I think I might be confusing myself LOL

I'm saying you need to benchmark the DR to the amount of damage you plan for them to take (more to average than maximum damage), then do something with HP and/or IT:DR so any hit that gets through DR at all doesn't tend to obliterate them.


And you need way more than 100 DR to deal with nukes, and Cosmic won't help against nukes or conventional artillery. Some Hardened might be in order, though. Say something on the order of DR 20-100, Hardened, PLUS IT:DR of at least (100), probably more like (1,000) or (10,000) if you seriously want them to be able to handle even tac nukes.

[Ragabash Moon]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

I'm saying you need to benchmark the DR to the amount of damage you plan for them to take (more to average than maximum damage), then do something with HP and/or IT:DR so any hit that gets through DR at all doesn't tend to obliterate them.


And you need way more than 100 DR to deal with nukes, and Cosmic won't help against nukes or conventional artillery. Some Hardened might be in order, though. Say something on the order of DR 20-100, Hardened, PLUS IT:DR of at least (100), probably more like (1,000) or (10,000) if you seriously want them to be able to handle even tac nukes.

conventional artillery bypasses Cosmic DR?

So, then Superman is about a 25,000 point character then? LOL Might very well be, though at least in my case I'm not actually trying to recreate a Kryptonian per se, just the idea of they pretty much can ignore most things that would kill a human, but vs. each other, they are just normal humans.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

conventional artillery bypasses Cosmic DR?

If it does more damage than you have DR, then YES. That's what I've been trying to tell you.

Cosmic (Irresistible) attacks bypass normal DR, Cosmic on the DR prevents that, but Cosmic on the DR doesn't make you any tougher against normal attacks.

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

So, then Superman is about a 25,000 point character then? LOL Might very well be, though at least in my case I'm not actually trying to recreate a Kryptonian per se, just the idea of they pretty much can ignore most things that would kill a human, but vs. each other, they are just normal humans.

Only if you insist on doing him with all DR and no Damage Reduction, or using ST bought normally as opposed to the Super-ST construction.

[Anthony]

Yeah, Kryptonians don't have Cosmic attacks, they just have lots of damage and defenses. Comic book characters in general may also have access to some sort of 'world of paper mache' advantage, whereby living beings are much much tougher than objects (it's even more visible for anime characters; there's nothing like seeing the theoretically normal person get swatted fifty feet into solid stone, leave a crater in the stone, and eventually get up and walk away).

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

conventional artillery bypasses Cosmic DR?
.

It doesn't bypass the DR. But the Cosmic doesn't do anything to it.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It doesn't bypass the DR. But the Cosmic doesn't do anything to it.

Exactly. It's not that it bypasses the DR, it still needs to go through it (although it might have some Armor Divisor on it, I suppose, that would make that easier), but getting through it is not made any more difficult by having it be Cosmic.

I suppose you could house rule it to work the other way around, if you wanted, although +50% would then be pretty ridiculously cheap. There was a thread some time ago where somebody had a similar misunderstanding about Hardened, thinking it effectively multiplied the value of DR for all attacks, as opposed to just counteracting Armor Divisor.... which past a certain point, of course, would be massively more effective than buying more DR.

[David Johnston2]

Incidentally, I long ago decided that I was going to just say that comic book nukes are just plain less lethal than the real thing. It helps that radiation isn't much of a bad thing in comic books.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

conventional artillery bypasses Cosmic DR?

Adding the defensive "Cosmic" enhancement to DR does nothing except allow it to protect against Cosmic attacks. That's all the enhancement does.

Abe has DR 30 with no modifiers.
Bob has DR 30 (Cosmic, +50%).

Both of them are hit by a divine ray of force: Crushing Attack 10d (Cosmic, Irresistible attack, +300%). The ray of force rolls 35 points of basic damage. Abe's DR is ignored completely because the divine ray is Cosmic, so he takes the full 35 points of damage. Bob's DR protects him normally, so he only takes 5 points.

Both of them heal up, and later on, they're both hit by a 10d sniper rifle for 35 points of basic damage. Abe's normal DR protects him, but he still takes 5 points of damage. Bob's Cosmic DR protects him, but he still takes 5 points of damage. Because the sniper rifle isn't Cosmic in any way, the two men's DR protects them equally well.

Is that clear?

[LemmingLord]

I'd say Clark does not have cosmic but just a very high dr. Magic attack bypass his dr all the time.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

I'd say Clark does not have cosmic but just a very high dr. Magic attack bypass his dr all the time.

And has a specific vulnerability to such attacks. Kryptonian DR (or Damage Reduction as the case may be) should include a limitation based on how common Magic is in the game world.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Remember that things like "Common," "Occasional," and "Rare" are shorthand for "Common as an attack," "An occasionally encountered creature," and "Rare as an environmental condition." They are pegged to the context of specific advantages and disadvantages. Use, say, the rarities set for Detect or Neutralize with DR at your peril. My general feeling is that DR with a "hole" against something ought to get -15% for a Very Common flaw, -10% for a Common one, -5% for an Occasional one, and just be a quirk for a Rare one.