Cosmic vs. Cosmic (ala Kryptonian vs. Kryptonian?)

[Ragabash Moon]

So, I was just rewatching Smallville (IMO, the best Superman reboot ever) and I was thinking, how would you approximate a Kryptonian vs. a Kryptonian (or other super-being on the same level as a Kryptonian?) The heat beams and such you can easily put bypasses Cosmic DR, but what about normal punches? When you are dealing the level of damage Kryptonians deal?

Or, would you just leave off cosmic completely, and the fact that they do so much damage in the first place is why they can bypass each other's DR, nothing else can?

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

So, I was just rewatching Smallville (IMO, the best Superman reboot ever) and I was thinking, how would you approximate a Kryptonian vs. a Kryptonian (or other super-being on the same level as a Kryptonian?) The heat beams and such you can easily put bypasses Cosmic DR, but what about normal punches? When you are dealing the level of damage Kryptonians deal?

Or, would you just leave off cosmic completely, and the fact that they do so much damage in the first place is why they can bypass each other's DR, nothing else can?

Cosmic on DR doesn't prevent big enough attacks from doing damage anyway. Do more points than the DR, damage occurs normally. Mostly what it's good for is resisting Cosmic (Irresistible) on attacks, which I'm not sure Kryptonian punches or heat vision really need. Maybe some armor divisor on the heat vision, sure, but I don't know that it blows through all regular armor even at low levels of HP damage.

[Ragabash Moon]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Cosmic on DR doesn't prevent big enough attacks from doing damage anyway. Do more points than the DR, damage occurs normally. Mostly what it's good for is resisting Cosmic (Irresistible) on attacks, which I'm not sure Kryptonian punches or heat vision really need. Maybe some armor divisor on the heat vision, sure, but I don't know that it blows through all regular armor even at low levels of HP damage.

So just give them high levels of DR, then their high levels of damage will mean normal human damage to each other?

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

So just give them high levels of DR, then their high levels of damage will mean normal human damage to each other?

Pretty much, although high HP and some level of Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) would also be a good idea, so that the standard deviation on, say, a 30d6 punch doesn't mean the difference between bouncing off the DR and punching a hole through the other guy and forcing a HT check for death.

But Cosmic +50% on your DR definitely doesn't mean that attacks without some version of Cosmic will bounce off without fail, which your original post seemed to imply. E.g., even with Cosmic, your 10 DR will still let a point or two of damage through from an IMI Eagle (3d6) about half the time.

[Ragabash Moon]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Pretty much, although high HP and some level of Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) would also be a good idea, so that the standard deviation on, say, a 30d6 punch doesn't mean the difference between bouncing off the DR and punching a hole through the other guy and forcing a HT check for death.

But Cosmic +50% on your DR definitely doesn't mean that attacks without some version of Cosmic will bounce off without fail, which your original post seemed to imply. E.g., even with Cosmic, your 10 DR will still let a point or two of damage through from an IMI Eagle (3d6) about half the time.

Well, right but a Kryptonian is looking at benchmarking DR. Back in 3rd edition there was "Invincible" for 300pts. Which was essentially DR Infinity. Totally broken, so 4th ed you benchmark it so the most damage they could possibly take as your DR. Or, since you want them to all be on a level playing field, say average? So, say the average Kryptonian has a 30d6 punch, then you need 90 points of DR for the average punch to get through the average DR. But, the DR needs to still be high enough to reflect the fact that the Kryptonian can pretty much take a Rocket Propelled Grenade to the face. I mean, really the only threat to Superman is other supers on his level. Assuming he's not near kryptonite of course. Other Kryptonians, BRANIAC, Phantom Zoners, Martian Manhunter... they're on his level. A nuclear missile? Might give him a suntan.

So then better wording of my question I guess is, would it be overkill to put cosmic on the DR, or Cosmic on the attacks? Or both? So they negate each other, but a kryptonian can punch through a steel vault like it's tissue paper because they are ignoring the DR?

Now I think I might be confusing myself LOL

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

Well, right but a Kryptonian is looking at benchmarking DR. Back in 3rd edition there was "Invincible" for 300pts. Which was essentially DR Infinity. Totally broken, so 4th ed you benchmark it so the most damage they could possibly take as your DR. Or, since you want them to all be on a level playing field, say average? So, say the average Kryptonian has a 30d6 punch, then you need 90 points of DR for the average punch to get through the average DR. But, the DR needs to still be high enough to reflect the fact that the Kryptonian can pretty much take a Rocket Propelled Grenade to the face. I mean, really the only threat to Superman is other supers on his level. Assuming he's not near kryptonite of course. Other Kryptonians, BRANIAC, Phantom Zoners, Martian Manhunter... they're on his level. A nuclear missile? Might give him a suntan.

So then better wording of my question I guess is, would it be overkill to put cosmic on the DR, or Cosmic on the attacks? Or both? So they negate each other, but a kryptonian can punch through a steel vault like it's tissue paper because they are ignoring the DR?

Now I think I might be confusing myself LOL

I'm saying you need to benchmark the DR to the amount of damage you plan for them to take (more to average than maximum damage), then do something with HP and/or IT:DR so any hit that gets through DR at all doesn't tend to obliterate them.


And you need way more than 100 DR to deal with nukes, and Cosmic won't help against nukes or conventional artillery. Some Hardened might be in order, though. Say something on the order of DR 20-100, Hardened, PLUS IT:DR of at least (100), probably more like (1,000) or (10,000) if you seriously want them to be able to handle even tac nukes.

[Ragabash Moon]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

I'm saying you need to benchmark the DR to the amount of damage you plan for them to take (more to average than maximum damage), then do something with HP and/or IT:DR so any hit that gets through DR at all doesn't tend to obliterate them.


And you need way more than 100 DR to deal with nukes, and Cosmic won't help against nukes or conventional artillery. Some Hardened might be in order, though. Say something on the order of DR 20-100, Hardened, PLUS IT:DR of at least (100), probably more like (1,000) or (10,000) if you seriously want them to be able to handle even tac nukes.

conventional artillery bypasses Cosmic DR?

So, then Superman is about a 25,000 point character then? LOL Might very well be, though at least in my case I'm not actually trying to recreate a Kryptonian per se, just the idea of they pretty much can ignore most things that would kill a human, but vs. each other, they are just normal humans.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

conventional artillery bypasses Cosmic DR?

If it does more damage than you have DR, then YES. That's what I've been trying to tell you.

Cosmic (Irresistible) attacks bypass normal DR, Cosmic on the DR prevents that, but Cosmic on the DR doesn't make you any tougher against normal attacks.

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

So, then Superman is about a 25,000 point character then? LOL Might very well be, though at least in my case I'm not actually trying to recreate a Kryptonian per se, just the idea of they pretty much can ignore most things that would kill a human, but vs. each other, they are just normal humans.

Only if you insist on doing him with all DR and no Damage Reduction, or using ST bought normally as opposed to the Super-ST construction.

[Anthony]

Yeah, Kryptonians don't have Cosmic attacks, they just have lots of damage and defenses. Comic book characters in general may also have access to some sort of 'world of paper mache' advantage, whereby living beings are much much tougher than objects (it's even more visible for anime characters; there's nothing like seeing the theoretically normal person get swatted fifty feet into solid stone, leave a crater in the stone, and eventually get up and walk away).

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

conventional artillery bypasses Cosmic DR?
.

It doesn't bypass the DR. But the Cosmic doesn't do anything to it.