Building a mythic hero

[quarkstomper]

Okay, I had to do a little quick research. My first thought was that the source had cribbed from Unca Joe Campbell, but I see the source of the list, The Hero: A study in Tradition, Myth and Dreams by Lord Raglan pre-dated Joseph Campbell's The Hero With a Thousand Faces by nearly a decade. Interesting.

[dcarson]

I can see a
If more then half of these are true you are probably a mythic hero quiz in a adventurers magazine

[Anders]

Originally Posted by quarkstomper

Okay, I had to do a little quick research. My first thought was that the source had cribbed from Unca Joe Campbell, but I see the source of the list, The Hero: A study in Tradition, Myth and Dreams by Lord Raglan pre-dated Joseph Campbell's The Hero With a Thousand Faces by nearly a decade. Interesting.

He also said:

"If, instead of saying that thieves will go to prison or liars will go to hell, we could make people think that stealing is as bad as going to a funeral in a coloured tie, or lying as bad as frying a sausage on the parlour fire, we should achieve a colossal reformation."

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by whswhs

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all you strength; and your neighbor as yourself" seems pretty prescriptive.

Bill Stoddard

True. The main difference is that there are know political or judicial commandments(other then "be a good citizen" and "enforce internal order") and no cultic ones(other then Baptism and Communion). Torah was meant for the organization of a nation, not a universalist religion.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

This was an interesting page.

The mythical pattern of a hero

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2. His father is a king, and
3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster -parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. And becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws, but
16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death,
19. Often at the top of a hill,
20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.

1. Quite rare. More common for heroes to be divine bastards. I can't remember any virgin births other then Jesus and Darth Vader. I suspect that Ancients found celestial kinkiness more arousing.

2. Fairly normal. Besides rule of cool, it is a convenient way to explain why the Hero is interested in high politics.

3. As most people are near relations to their mother, I assume you mean the parents were practicing endogamy. Fairly common among nobility and among scattered populations.

4. And often quite fearsome. Ghengis Khan was grasping a blood clot and Ivan the Terrible had an eclipse or a thunderstorm I forget which. Paul Atreides' mother rebelled against the Bene Geserit.

5. More common then virgin births.

6. Quite common

7. Also common. Supposedly happened to Cyrus the Great.

8. Ditto

9. Common though there are exceptions. Turin Turumbar had a tender relation with his father's retainer.

10. Quite common

11. Note Aragorn, Paul Atreides, etc.

12. And she is always very beautiful. Justifiable when you think about it as commoner women have to work and haven't access to cosmetics.

13. Of course

14. Not necessarily. Being a great conqueror is always fun.

15. Varies. Often these are military laws to improve the new monarchs army. "United the tribes" is also popular and is naturally associated with prescribing laws. All perfectly natural.

16. A favorite of the Greeks. Jews liked it too though sometimes he repented and won favor back. Sometimes favor of the gods is lost by the heroes descendants. Also the waning phase of the Cycle of Empires is a popular alternative and among highly religious cultures is pretty much the same thing.

17. Naturally. A lot of thrones depended on Klingon Promotion.

18. Of course. And the body is never found.

19. Huh?

20. Unless it is the founding myth of a dynasty.

21. Well, yes

22. You forgot about being enchanted so he can return and rescue his people.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

I wouldn't expect all heroes to have to match every point. That's carrying things a bit too far, putting the form over the substance.

On the other hand, the fact that there are variations and deviations doesn't invalidate the observation that there's a common pattern to a lot of mythical stories. It might be more interesting, academically, to study the differences rather than try to force-fit every story to the master pattern.

Joseph Campbell wrote about this extensively in THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES and THE MASKS OF GOD, and before him James Frazer in THE GOLDEN BOUGH.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

True. The main difference is that there are know political or judicial commandments(other then "be a good citizen" and "enforce internal order") and no cultic ones(other then Baptism and Communion). Torah was meant for the organization of a nation, not a universalist religion.

What about "Blessed are the cheesemakers?".

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

What about "Blessed are the cheesemakers?".

I don't remember any commandment regarding cheese. Other then that most Jews don't eat meat with dairy which sounds like kind of an extreme extrapolation but whatever.

If you are however referring indirectly to "blessed are the peacemakers" that was referring to all relations rather then simply political ones which commoners in an autocratic empire would have had little say in in any case.

But "be a good citizen" is implied in "render unto Caesar." And "enforce internal order" is implied in a couple of instances one of which was where Paul rebuked a Church for going to magistrates instead of arbitrating themselves, and another where Paul ordered someone banned for incest and adultery.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I don't remember any commandment regarding cheese. Other then that most Jews don't eat meat with dairy which sounds like kind of an extreme extrapolation but whatever.

If you are however referring indirectly to "blessed are the peacemakers" that was referring to all relations rather then simply political ones which commoners in an autocratic empire would have had little say in in any case.

I could have been referring to "The heroes deeds/message become warped in the retelling".

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I could have been referring to "The heroes deeds/message become warped in the retelling".

You could have meant that. But that would be uninteresting, because there is no more discussion to be made on that point, unimaginitive because that claim is brought up by every hack-historian, and because it is an arbitrary assertion which cannot possibly be disproved as any possible contrary evidence can be claimed as a fake. And just plain wearisome because if you believe you have to deny that claim and if you disbelieve you have to accept it and there is no more to be said. And the details of a given story are more interesting then whether a given person believes them in the context of this thread.