GURPS Basic Set 4E, Revised...?

[Dogma75]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

2) No, though it wouldn't irk me too much if done just right. The current GURPS problems are with presentation, not with missing options in Basic. There really should be full-game folders for Dungeon Fantasy and Space Opera.

Presentation is always a problem. In the market the product with the larger marketing founds will win over other products most of the time. If they are better or not doesn't matter. Presence in the media and presentation counts.
If I compare GURPS with other products then I have a diamond wrapped in an old newspaper if I compare it with other rpgs which are the beans using gift-wrapped paper with gold ribbons. Btw I like how the layout is made and the chapters are organized with colors in my hardcover copies.
Also GURPS misses evolving and continuous supported settings. Take a look at the market, the systems which have settings and where settings get new supplements every few months prosper or have constant sales numbers.
Please don't name the nWoD because I think this new marketing strategy (make new ones from old stuff) is like a shot in your own knee and a muck around of customers like me...

If there would be a 5th edition SJG should start with starter boxes like FFG and WoC. They run like hell here in Germany and also are catching young and new players even if the boxes are in English. The starter boxes should contain rules like the lite version with one or two settings which are ready to play. Not Ghost in the shell, Gurps in the box... ;-)
SJG could lead new customers directly to their system. And imho they would buy the more complex rules.

ICE had problems also after they lost their LotR Setting. Rules alone don't sell.

If I take myself as an example. I am 38 now, have family and not so much time on hand to read and construct a setting or work out villians, monsters and so on. You need settings...settings were you as publisher contribute in a short time much stuff to buy and for free.

Take Pathfinder fpr example (pls no discussion if it is bad or good). They made no completly new game, they took much of the old D&D versions but the secret of their success are the adventure paths. You buy 6 or seven small books and you have stuff for weeks and months. And they publish in a scary pace...

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Dogma75

If there would be a 5th edition SJG should start with starter boxes like FFG and WoC. They run like hell here in Germany and also are catching young and new players even if the boxes are in English. The starter boxes should contain rules like the lite version with one or two settings which are ready to play. Not Ghost in the shell, Gurps in the box... ;-)
SJG could lead new customers directly to their system. And imho they would buy the more complex rules.

Starter boxes are loss leaders, they lose money in the hope of making more later.
Like cell phones :)
Trouble is smaller companies without deep pockets do not have the budget to lose.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Starter boxes are loss leaders, they lose money in the hope of making more later.
Like cell phones :)
Trouble is smaller companies without deep pockets do not have the budget to lose.

The comparison seems totally off. Cell phones make money precisely because it is fashionable to buy the newest one every year or two. Follow-up stuff like accessories actually sell for very little.

[Dogma75]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Starter boxes are loss leaders, they lose money in the hope of making more later.
Like cell phones :)
Trouble is smaller companies without deep pockets do not have the budget to lose.

You are making the wrong approach Refplace. You should take a look at a starter box and the rule books together.
See the starter box as a marketing instrument to present your product and throw together the costs for the box and the follow-ups (the campaing and character books for example) then you will see that the cost-benefit calculation looks different.

I have a good example. Heidelberger Spiele is a mid-sized German game firm. They translate most of the stuff from FFG. tabletop games, lcgs and also RPG. First the W40K series, now the new Star Wars system.
They are translating the Star Wars box from FFG and sure as hell they have to pay royalities and have to pay for a translator. I don't even mention the print, the advertising and the shipping. They wouldn't translate it, if they don't reckon a margin...

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The comparison seems totally off. Cell phones make money precisely because it is fashionable to buy the newest one every year or two. Follow-up stuff like accessories actually sell for very little.

Basic Model Cell Phones, at least in the US, are very often sold very cheaply or even given away by a Cell Company. The catch is that you have to sign an multi-year contract for Cell Service, usually with a big cancellation fee. Phone companies are always offering newer phones to people if they renew their contract.

So the phone itself becomes a loss leader, with the profit being made on the cell phone service itself. Sure you can buy the iPhone, or Galaxy, or whatever other expensive model it is that you want, but then you're not getting the "free" phone anymore.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

Basic Model Cell Phones, at least in the US, are very often sold very cheaply or even given away by a Cell Company. The catch is that you have to sign an multi-year contract for Cell Service, usually with a big cancellation fee. Phone companies are always offering newer phones to people if they renew their contract.

So the phone itself becomes a loss leader, with the profit being made on the cell phone service itself. Sure you can buy the iPhone, or Galaxy, or whatever other expensive model it is that you want, but then you're not getting the "free" phone anymore.

That's some weird market you've got there. What do people do if they need 2-3 networks (not simultaneously) but only want one phone? What about people who jump networks due to roaming optimisation while travelling? Why don't people buy the phones they like and combine them with the sims they like? E.g. I went from Welcom to Life when it became more advantageous without buying a new phone, and at other times bought new phones without doing anything silly with my contract (my expiry date simply extends to a fixed period from 'now' each time I add any money to the account).

[dylan]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

That's some weird market you've got there. What do people do if they need 2-3 networks (not simultaneously) but only want one phone? What about people who jump networks due to roaming optimisation while travelling? Why don't people buy the phones they like and combine them with the sims they like? E.g. I went from Welcom to Life when it became more advantageous without buying a new phone, and at other times bought new phones without doing anything silly with my contract (my expiry date simply extends to a fixed period from 'now' each time I add any money to the account).

Because US law allows the phone companies to make the phones nontransferable. It's possible to "jaibreak" a phone to make it work on a different company's network but IIRC the law just changed to make that illegal. So you can keep your cell number when you switch companies but you have to get a new phone.

[Mathulhu]

The game does not need a new version or revision but there are some things that need to be done.

Some kind of compilation of all the rules, not a reprinting just a list of where to find useful rules. There are a lot of gems hidden in odd books.

That would go a long way towards helping the people who are overwhelmed by the number of optional rules.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

Yes, America, land of "free trade," where the laws are designed to create monopolies. Internet services and modems work exactly the same way as cell phones. It's great.

Originally Posted by Rasputin

3) Characters would ditch Combat Lite and add a couple pages of equipment, change the weapon and armor weights to match Low-Tech, maybe add a few techniques and some common modifiers to advantages/disadvantages. Actually, I know some techniques to add, and those are the Acrobatics ones from Compendium II. Campaigns would ditch Infinite Worlds and add computer rules from Ultra-Tech, trap rules from Dungeon Fantasy, chase rules from Action, Hiking rules from High-Tech, Telegraphic Attack from Martial Arts. The animals would be in the new Bestiary format that is in Dungeon Fantasy and have their attacks specified...

I know they've said that there will be no 4E compendium, and I understand not doing that with pure generic rules-sets like the Power-Ups. But collecting the complementary skills, hiking, telegraphic attack, chase, trap, etc. rules as an Upgrade/Compendium III would be really nice, since each of those are buried in a larger genre book.

For that matter, has everything in Compendium II been updated to 4E yet? I know the Basic set is missing the worked-example diseases and poisons and herbs, outdoor hazards, atmospheres, gravity, pressure, pollution, radiation, Enigmatic Alien Device Button-Pushing Table, and healing tech rules. Lots of the cinematic combat and ritual combat rules aren't in Basic either. I'm guessing the mass combat and abstract vehicular combat have been updated in some other book, though. Are the atmosphere, gravity, and pressure rules updated in Space?

Also, what is the new bestiary format? Does any website or thread have a generic/template version of it? I may want to use it in writing/updating worldbooks.

[samd6]

One of the things that would go in is Energy Reserve, which has shown up in Supers, Powers and Thaumatology.
Another thing I'd do is swap out the magic chapter with something on syntactic magic, which is more flexible and easier to understand.

My ideal revision is physically impossible, as it is a single book that contains all the rules I need and instantly opens to the relevant page.