Survival and Naturalist - what do I roll against

[Anders]

Originally Posted by whswhs

There certainly is! Every land specialty defaults to every other land specialty at -3; every water specialty to every other water specialty at -4.

Bill Stoddard

Yep, I was wrong.

[Bruno]

EDIT: I just reviewed my post and wow, I used a lot of italic. Um. Hope that's not annoying?

To the best of my knowledge, Naturalist does not include forecasting the weather, guessing where the lay of the land might form natural caves and hollows to use for improvised shelter, and similar things that do not strictly involve plants or animals. I think it shouldn't include "building a shelter" either, although it would be useful for locating good trees to use for structural members, others with good leaves to use to shed water, and grasses, vines, or trees with bark that would be good to make improvised twine to tie the whole thing together.

But the Naturalist wouldn't know how to make the twine - that's another skill again (probably Survival, Housekeeping at low TLs, and a few professional skills). On the other hand, he can advise you that the cave you've found is also very appealing to cave bears, and those vertical gouges in the tree bark outside the cave are typical of cave bear territorial markings, and that the cave bear that made them is probably about 12 feet tall when standing upright.

The Survivalist includes a little of Geology - enough to have an eye on the lay of the land and where to hunt for water and natural hollows for shelter, and where to find ground that probably won't get flooded to build your shelter on (which is a little of Hydrology too). The Survivalist has practical knowledge on the Carpentry/Engineering/Whatever of designing a shelter out of found natural materials, and is good at spotting them (perception based) but might not have a clue what they are. Just "Oh hey, there's some nice straight branches, I need those to hold up my roof".

The Survivalist has good general knowledge on making and setting snares that the Naturalist does not (but a Traps expert could outdo quite nicely) and can spot good places to put them when he sees them (Perception). The Naturalist can look around, say "this is bad browse for hare, we should look for plants like these (rattles off a list) if we want to catch some for supper" and knows about some of the perfect baits for hares because he knows about hares and what they do when they're not in a snare. But he'll be better paired up with a Survivalist or someone with Area Knowledge (local) to find the perfect bait.

Survival is a professional skill. As such, it covers areas from several other skills - a bit of Scrounging, a bit of Observation, a bit of Traps, a bit of Weather sense, a bit of Geology, a bit of Hydrology, a bit of Machineist (for manufacturing things out of those found materials). It synergizes them in a very specific way for a very specific purpose - it just happens to be a purpose that keeps you alive so of course it's a valuable skill.

The downside is you have to specialize by a rough ecological type. I totally agree that an ecological type includes a specific planet. There might be swamp analogues on a xenoplanet but that doesn't make it the "wetlands" that are studied so extensively in Canada; it's just "has similarities", and whatever cross-planet default penalty applies for other skills like Biology would be very appropriate here too.

"Naturalist" is "Field Biologist". This is obviously a damned handy skill if you eat animals or plants, wear parts of animals or plants, and use parts of animals or plants to shelter, arm, and heal yourself. Survival dips a little into it, just like it dips into other skills.

The third skill I don't see people discussing here, but I think you should, is Area Knowledge (Local). Survival says "Deer tend to come to drink at still water, you can find still spots along rivers in XYZ conditions". Nature says "Deer prefer to drink at still water for XYZ reasons; other conditions that fullfil XYZ include W, Q, and T." Area Knowledge (Local) says "The deer come down to drink in the mornings at that slow spot in the river over by the dead stump, but when the wind is out of the west and after a storm they go up river to the flat place by the funny shaped rock with the white mark on it."

AK (Local) doesn't give a crap what deer do elsewhere, or WHY they do it - but it'll sure find you deer to shoot at.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I'm a little hazy on the difference between the two. If I have Survival (X) and Naturalist, when do I roll against one and when do I roll against the other. Naturalist seems to be a little like the Survival (generic) that exists in some games, but if it is that, why is it based on IQ rather than Per?

First, to establish what the book says ...

Naturalist:

Originally Posted by GURPS Basic, pg 211

This skill – crucial for fantasy druids and rangers – represents practical (as opposed to scientific) knowledge of nature in its many forms. It includes just enough Biology to tell dangerous plants and animals from benign ones; just enough Geology to locate a cave to shelter in; and just enough Meteorology to know when to take shelter. Roll vs. skill to do any of these things.

Survival:

Originally Posted by GURPS Basic, pg 223 - 224

This is the ability to “live off the land,” find safe food and water, avoid hazards, build shelter, etc. You may look after up to 10 other people. To live safely in a wilderness situation, you must make a successful Survival roll once per day. Failure inflicts 2d-4 injury on you and anyone in your care; roll separately for each victim.

This skill also gives an “eye for country.” A successful roll shows you the best direction of travel to find flowing water, a mountain pass, or whatever other terrain feature you desire – assuming that it exists.

Finally, you can use this skill to trap wild animals. (A city-bred thief could use Traps skill, but he’s used to different game . . . so the roll would be at a -5.) Make one roll per trap. It takes about 30 minutes to improvise a trap from ordinary materials, or 10 minutes to set and hide a commercial steel trap. Pit traps for large game take several hours to dig.

Survival often requires skill rolls based on scores other than Perception. The GM might ask for a ST-based roll to dig a pit trap or erect a log shelter, a DX-based roll to start a fire using primitive techniques (flint sparking, bow and palette, etc.), or even a HT-based roll to avoid nutritional deficiencies from an improvised diet.

... given this and upon reviewing the uses the skills can be put to, my conclusion is that Naturalist is a lovely newbie trap that you shouldn't invest points in except for background color and/or to satisfy prerequisites for other traits.

[Edges]

The way I treat it is there are games that use Naturalist and games that use Survival. The Naturalist games are generally cinematic and/or rules light and the Survival games are more realistic and detailed. Naturalist is sort of half way to wildcard. I realize this may not be the intention on the rules.

[quarkstomper]

Just off the top of my head, and going for a simplistic rule-of-thumb, I'd say that Naturalist is a mostly scientific skill that can have practical applications, while Survival is a practical skill that incorporates some scientific knowledge.

If I was statting up Charles Darwin, you could argue, I suppose, that I should give him Survival: Galapagos Islands; and I'm sure that he did pick up maybe a point of Survival skill in his travels. But I'd be more likely to give him Naturalist to fit his background and let any rolls he needs to make in Survival-type situations float off his default from Naturalist.

Alan Quatarmain, on the other hand, has probably picked up bits and pieces of scientific facts about the flora and fauna of South Africa during his years as an elephant hunter, but in statting him I'd be more likely to just give him Survival: African Veldt.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

First, to establish what the book says ...

... given this and upon reviewing the uses the skills can be put to, my conclusion is that Naturalist is a lovely newbie trap that you shouldn't invest points in except for background color and/or to satisfy prerequisites for other traits.

Thank you, Sunrunners_Fire; quoting the actual text of the RAW should have been one of the first things posted.

I would add that Naturalist-3 is a default for Survival--same as Survival (other land specialty).

If you have Naturalist, you have all the other Survival skills--land and water both--at Naturalist-3. Add to that, that Naturalist does give you a bit of practical information beyond just what's useful for survival and maybe then it becomes more cost effective than concepts that only make use of Survival skill(s).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

... given this and upon reviewing the uses the skills can be put to, my conclusion is that Naturalist is a lovely newbie trap that you shouldn't invest points in except for background color and/or to satisfy prerequisites for other traits.

Why trap? It's basically a way to get all Survival specialities, as well as a little bit of Biology, Mimicry, Pharmacy, and Tracking. There are 8 land-based Survival terrain types, and the highest cost for three levels of skill is [12]. Which basically means that if you're investing more than a single point per Survival terrain, you're better off taking Naturalist.

It also has the neat feature that it is IQ-based, so if you're making a cerebral/introspective character (IQ>Per), you get even more out of the defaulting.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Why trap? It's basically a way to get all Survival specialities, as well as a little bit of Biology, Mimicry, Pharmacy, and Tracking. There are 8 land-based Survival terrain types, and the highest cost for three levels of skill is [12]. Which basically means that if you're investing more than a single point per Survival terrain, you're better off taking Naturalist.

It also has the neat feature that it is IQ-based, so if you're making a cerebral/introspective character (IQ>Per), you get even more out of the defaulting.

Survival defaults to all other Survivals, just as it defaults to Naturalist, so that's not an issue. But Naturalist does give you information that isn't directly survival related, and that can be a handy thing.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Why trap? It's basically a way to get all Survival specialities, as well as a little bit of Biology, Mimicry, Pharmacy, and Tracking. There are 8 land-based Survival terrain types, and the highest cost for three levels of skill is [12]. Which basically means that if you're investing more than a single point per Survival terrain, you're better off taking Naturalist.

It also has the neat feature that it is IQ-based, so if you're making a cerebral/introspective character (IQ>Per), you get even more out of the defaulting.

Survival (_bar) defaults from Survival (_foo) at -3. Survival (_foo) is a Per/A skill.
Survival (_bar) defaults from Naturalist at -3. Naturalist is an IQ/H skill.

Survival is a useful skill on its' own. Naturalist is a useful skill only for the defaults it provides and the prerequisites it satisfies.

The skill description for Naturalist is very clear about what it does: you can tell dangerous animals and plants from benign ones / you can locate natural shelter / you can tell when you should be looking for shelter. Anything else, everything else, you might want to use it for isn't supported by the text. The GM can add things to it that should be there in order to make it useful, but the GM may choose not to do so and may not even be aware of the problem.

Thereby, its' a newbie trap; it is almost perfectly situated to cause buyers remorse once the people involved become more experienced with the game system. Are my players still going to take it? Sure! Why? Because it appears I have a body of house rules about the skill which make it useful. I'm merely disappointed that I didn't realize they were house rules. =p

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Because it appears I have a body of house rules about the skill which make it useful. I'm merely disappointed that I didn't realize they were house rules. =p

Actually, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of Naturalist applications scattered throughout the rulebooks.