Survival and Naturalist - what do I roll against

[Anders]

I'm a little hazy on the difference between the two. If I have Survival (X) and Naturalist, when do I roll against one and when do I roll against the other. Naturalist seems to be a little like the Survival (generic) that exists in some games, but if it is that, why is it based on IQ rather than Per?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I'm a little hazy on the difference between the two. If I have Survival (X) and Naturalist, when do I roll against one and when do I roll against the other. Naturalist seems to be a little like the Survival (generic) that exists in some games, but if it is that, why is it based on IQ rather than Per?

A key point seems to be that Survival (Terrain Type) defaults to Naturalist-3 or to Survival (Other Terrain Type)-3 [for land specialties]. That seems to say that Naturalist does not grant close familiarity with the particular edible or dangerous species, or the characteristic terrain formations, or other resources or hazards of a particular environment; it's a more general knowledge of wildernesses, the kind of thing that might enable a desert nomad to figure out how to stay alive in the arctic or in a swamp. The IQ base suggests that it's more an academic knowledge, possible the result of reading or school courses, but in any case less practical than theoretical.

Survival includes practical skills such as starting a fire or making a pit trap. The Naturalist-3 default suggests that this is someone who's read about these skills, but doesn't rely on them for daily survival or comfort, figuring out how to make them work.

Note also that Naturalist does not default to Survival. Perhaps the idea is that Survival teaches you very specific, task-oriented knowledge of the natural environment, but Naturalist is wider knowledge about the natural environment, less tied to immediate tasks—the ability to figure things out.

Bill Stoddard

[Dogma75]

As said by whswhs I think that "Naturalist" only refers to the fauna and the knowledge about plants, herbs and so on.

Survival is about techniques on how you survive in a certain landscape. Making fire, what to hunt, what to eat, how someone could win clean water and so on.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by whswhs

A key point seems to be that Survival (Terrain Type) defaults to Naturalist-3 or to Survival (Other Terrain Type)-3 [for land specialties]. That seems to say that Naturalist does not grant close familiarity with the particular edible or dangerous species, or the characteristic terrain formations, or other resources or hazards of a particular environment; it's a more general knowledge of wildernesses, the kind of thing that might enable a desert nomad to figure out how to stay alive in the arctic or in a swamp. The IQ base suggests that it's more an academic knowledge, possible the result of reading or school courses, but in any case less practical than theoretical.

Survival includes practical skills such as starting a fire or making a pit trap. The Naturalist-3 default suggests that this is someone who's read about these skills, but doesn't rely on them for daily survival or comfort, figuring out how to make them work.

Note also that Naturalist does not default to Survival. Perhaps the idea is that Survival teaches you very specific, task-oriented knowledge of the natural environment, but Naturalist is wider knowledge about the natural environment, less tied to immediate tasks—the ability to figure things out.

Bill Stoddard

However, the description of Naturalist says that it's practical (as opposed to scientific) knowledge of the nature. And the examples are things like knowing dangerous plants from benign ones, locate caves and knowing when to take shelter. How is that not Survival?

[Dogma75]

Maybe you could describe the Naturalist skill as a Jack of all trades. Knowing only a bit but not enough to "live of the land" ans Survival is trained, trained as in school, so that you can really "live" with the means given by area.

[shadowjack]

I generally play it that Naturalist and Survival both work equally well for locating food and shelter—after all, if you took an optional specialization in Naturalist by terrain type, you'd end up with an Average skill, same as Survival—but there are still significant differences.

Survival explicitly includes the hands-on aspects that Naturalist lacks: Firemaking, stalking or trapping game, building a short-term shelter or travois, determining safe paths.

Naturalist includes more theoretical knowledge than Survival, and is applicable in any environment. Drop a Naturalist into a new area and give them a little time, and they'll observe the local flora and fauna and the shape of the landscape and be able to make some predictions about what's edible, what the weather's going to be like around here, and so on.

The Survivalist knows how to catch some of those birds over there right now and dress them for eating, and in a familiar area (Area Knowledge) knows when the nesting season is for stealing eggs.

The Naturalist can predict that while there aren't any birds over there right now, there probably will be around dawn, and can make a good guess about when nesting season will be… but doesn't know much about actually catching and dressing the game.

The Survivalist sees that it's raining, and quickly improvises a good shelter from available materials.

The Naturalist sees that it's probably about to rain soon, and starts keeping an eye out for a good natural shelter.

The Survivalist knows how to find a good path through the marsh he's just found.

The Naturalist knows that there's probably a marsh over there, and it'll be hard to find a good path through it.

An experienced outdoorsman is likely to have acquired both skills, but your average hunter only needs Survival and Area Knowledge, and relies on his elders for Weather Sense and the like.

How I play it, anyway.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Dogma75

Maybe you could describe the Naturalist skill as a Jack of all trades. Knowing only a bit but not enough to "live of the land" ans Survival is trained, trained as in school, so that you can really "live" with the means given by area.

I think that's probably a useful way to look at it. Naturalist will let you avoid hazards; Survival means you know the useful resources at sight and have the skill to exploit them, without having to pause to figure them out or retrieve them from memory.

Bill Stoddard

[Tuk the Weekah]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I'm a little hazy on the difference between the two. If I have Survival (X) and Naturalist, when do I roll against one and when do I roll against the other. Naturalist seems to be a little like the Survival (generic) that exists in some games, but if it is that, why is it based on IQ rather than Per?

Well, let's look at the write-ups and see how they are to be applied.

Naturalist: You can tell: dangerous from benign/helpful flora & fauna; what shelters will be safe vs. risky; when to get out of the rain ;). Basically, Naturalist allows you to get by in the wilderness.

Survival: You know how to live off the land and support up to 10 people. You also know how to read the land, to know what routes would be easier travel for your means of locomotion. You also know how to locate, set, and work traps, snares, etc.

So, I would use Naturalist if someone wanted to be Robinson Crusoe on their own. I would use Survival if they were taking care of a group, scouting out trails for a larger following group, or trying to make a living off a trapline or as a hunter.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Tuk the Weekah

Well, let's look at the write-ups and see how they are to be applied.

Naturalist: You can tell: dangerous from benign/helpful flora & fauna; what shelters will be safe vs. risky; when to get out of the rain ;). Basically, Naturalist allows you to get by in the wilderness.

Survival: You know how to live off the land and support up to 10 people. You also know how to read the land, to know what routes would be easier travel for your means of locomotion. You also know how to locate, set, and work traps, snares, etc.

So, I would use Naturalist if someone wanted to be Robinson Crusoe on their own. I would use Survival if they were taking care of a group, scouting out trails for a larger following group, or trying to make a living off a trapline or as a hunter.

So what is Naturalist better for then?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

So what is Naturalist better for then?

It's better for knowing where a certain flower grows, or the favourite food of unicorns, or figuring where you randomly teleported to by looking at the local bird population, or what kind of mud the killer had on his boots and where it is...