MA campaigns and your experience

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Perfect idea for those of us that tend to panic and lock up when rushed to decide.

Particularly in a martial arts game.

When I run, say, an action game or a military game, the gameplay seems to revolve mainly around positioning, mobility, and getting your shots off. What you tend to hear the most are: "I aim" or "I shoot" or "I run and gun." I'm not saying it isn't fun, it is, it's just that the maneuver choices aren't especially complex.

But the whole point of kung fu games is saying things like "I make a Committed Spin-Kick as a riposte against my opponent's leg while using the acrobatic kicks perk." while the other guy says "Oh yeah? Well I shift to Defensive grip on my staff using Grip Mastery and parry your kick while side-stepping. Did I mention I have the counter-attack technique maxed? You're goin' down suckah!"

And that's hard to do in the spur of the moment without slowing the game down or causing the less mechanically adept to stare stupidly at their sheet. Hence, signature moves.

[Icelander]

Note that it's probably very unrealistic to expect people who know that they are about to go into a free-for-all fight against people of multiple styles to continue to focus on just one martial art. Most competative martial arts are highly specialised and therefore have serious weaknesses when used in a situation where the rules of that sport don't apply.

Taekwondo stylists and boxers will be helpless against grapplers with a good ground game if they don't bother to learn defences and counters.

A sensible martial artist planning to fight opponents with different background and training would make sure to cross-train in several styles. If he had advance knowledge of his opponent, he'd probably try to cross train in his specific style, and even failing that, it would make sense to pick up a few styles with wide application in the world of combat sports. A striking style like boxing or (Burmese/Thai/Malaysian/Other SE Asian) kickboxing; something allowing standing grapples and defences against them, such as jujutsu, judo or catch/shoot wrestling and a ground-grappling style like BJJ, sambo or Graeco-Roman wrestling.

[AlonzoTheGurpsPlayer]

I did think about that Icelander, but I am thinking there should be some way for strikers to win, I'm just trying to think how to balance them without everyone basically being a street fighter or MMA fighter. Does anybody have any idea how to balance strikers and grapplers? Or is it just better to go from teams representing martial arts to teams representing countries?

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by AlonzoTheGurpsPlayer

I did think about that Icelander, but I am thinking there should be some way for strikers to win, I'm just trying to think how to balance them without everyone basically being a street fighter or MMA fighter. Does anybody have any idea how to balance strikers and grapplers? Or is it just better to go from teams representing martial arts to teams representing countries?

I'd allow cinematic techniques and rules. The bulk of those benefit flashy, cool-looking striking techniques, while reality often boils down to two guys grappling one another. Since reality already supports grappling well, cinematic rules should benefit striking nicely.

[Flyndaran]

Hasn't it been written around here that striking is best when it's one against many? As grappling just allows his friends to kick you at will?

Bit cinematic advantages help, especially if it only takes one hit to reliably eliminate a single foe.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Hasn't it been written around here that striking is best when it's one against many? As grappling just allows his friends to kick you at will?

Ground grappling is of limited value against a mob. Standing grappling is very useful, as it lets you walk somebody between you and his pals (see Shoving People Around) or throw him into other people (with a shove, Judo throw, or Throws from Locks). My experience running GURPS with Martial Arts in use is that standing strikes, standing grappling, and ground grappling break down about 50/40/10 in many-on-few encounters where high-stats PCs are the ones outnumbered. That turns around to something like 30/60/10 when weapons (like knives) get involved. There are definitely memorable ground-grappling scenes, but they're all one-on-one – and they're memorable mostly because people distributed points assuming the previous breakdowns and were caught without good ground skills, making it a struggle.

Fezzik's "I've been specializing in groups" isn't entirely goofy. My experience is that players do tend to distribute their points that way.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Kromm

There are definitely memorable ground-grappling scenes, but they're all one-on-one – and they're memorable mostly because people distributed points assuming the previous breakdowns and were caught without good ground skills, making it a struggle.

So what skill do you use specifically for ground grappling as opposed to standing grappling?

Bill Stoddard

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by whswhs

So what skill do you use specifically for ground grappling as opposed to standing grappling?

The way GURPS breaks things down, Wrestling is more useful than Judo on the ground, because Judo's "big move" is a throw that's mostly valuable when standing, while Wrestling gives a ST bonus that's very useful if you plan to try the sorts of "long actions" that decide ground fighting: choke, pin, wrench limb, etc. However, the big differences aren't in skills, but in perks and techniques. Traditional Jujutsu is a Judo/Karate style that offers Low Fighting and Power Grappling; BJJ is a Judo/Wrestling style with Ground Fighting, Low Fighting, six lower-body moves that you'll mostly use from your back (Leg Throw, Lower-Body Arm Lock, Lower-Body Head Lock, Lower-Body Leg Lock, Scissors Hold, and Triangle Choke), and perks such as Ground Guard, Power Grappling, and Technique Adaptation (Ground Fighting). Sambo has a similar profile to BJJ.

Styles that favor standing action also have their tricks. They often include the Rapid Retraction perk to avoid limb captures that lead to being dumped, and the Acrobatic Stand technique to recover from being dumped and not pounced upon. Some even limit their grappling training to Clinch and Neck Control, relying on a really high striking skill to make these perks all they need to be effective.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by AlonzoTheGurpsPlayer

I did think about that Icelander, but I am thinking there should be some way for strikers to win, I'm just trying to think how to balance them without everyone basically being a street fighter or MMA fighter.

What you are proposing is essentially an MMA tournament, though. Having fighters train for only striking or only grappling makes about as much sense as having a pentathlete train only in riding or only in running. That doesn't happen in real life. You might get someone who is best at one aspect of the sport, but he'll need to train the other aspects as well.

Originally Posted by AlonzoTheGurpsPlayer

Does anybody have any idea how to balance strikers and grapplers? Or is it just better to go from teams representing martial arts to teams representing countries?

In my opinion, country-based or gym-based teams make more sense than style-specific teams. That being said, real MMA matches often have one fighter being better at ground-grappling and the other better at striking, or something similar. Not everyone has to fight the same way, as long as everyone is prepared for the rules that actually are in place.

[JP42]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Not everyone has to fight the same way, as long as everyone is prepared for the rules that actually are in place.

I'm no expert, but I'd even go so far as to say that not everyone has to fight the same way, but everyone should put at least a little something into those otherwise neglected skills lest they find themselves working from defaults.

It's the same story I have with folks coming from D&D to GURPS, who want a traditional fighter - "What do you mean my skill with the flail is 6-?" because they didn't invest the, oh, 10-12 points you need to have decent base skills in the most common of weapons.