Perk Limit

[Langy]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Clearly still speaking Martian here. I don't care about house rules, and I don't care about "just throwing stuff out". I'm trying to understand what the actual rules are supposed to be and how they are intended to interact by the authors.


Whether I (or you, or anybody even Kromm) house rules them is immaterial here. I don't like house ruling things unless I feel I fully understand the RAW, and it's pretty clear that I do not (or you and the others do not). Please explain to me, with reference to the RAW, why I am wrong.

Er, the entire 'perk limit' thing is essentially a house rule. It isn't part of the basic RAW - it's an entirely open-ended recommendation.

But yes, if you want to follow that recommendation, then the rule appears to be "X perks total are allowed; Y of these may be 'combat perks', Z may be 'magic perks'", etc. It's not a very good rule, and certainly isn't one I'd bother following - it makes it so just about every character ever is restricted to no more than two or three 'combat' perks, no matter how much they make sense to the character concept.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Langy

Er, the entire 'perk limit' thing is essentially a house rule. It isn't part of the basic RAW - it's an entirely open-ended recommendation.

But yes, if you want to follow that recommendation, then the rule appears to be "X perks total are allowed; Y of these may be 'combat perks', Z may be 'magic perks'", etc. It's not a very good rule, and certainly isn't one I'd bother following - it makes it so just about every character ever is restricted to no more than two or three 'combat' perks, no matter how much they make sense to the character concept.

Again, I'm not asking if the recommendations are a good idea, or whatever. I'm trying to understand how they are supposed to work in the first place. Some people seem to think that, as written, these recommendations permit perks that are otherwise "Style" (in Martial Arts) or "Combat" (in Power Ups 2) above the 1/20 and 1/10 limits. I do not understand where this is coming from. Either I am misunderstanding the recommendation as written or these other posters are.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Again, I'm not asking if the recommendations are a good idea, or whatever. I'm trying to understand how they are supposed to work in the first place. Some people seem to think that, as written, these recommendations permit perks that are otherwise "Style" (in Martial Arts) or "Combat" (in Power Ups 2) above the 1/20 and 1/10 limits. I do not understand where this is coming from. Either I am misunderstanding the recommendation as written or these other posters are.

I think a very strict reading of the rules may prove you right, but that the intent was probably this:

You get X 'General' perks. These can be chosen from any group in Power-Ups 2 except the Combat perks.

You may also get Y 'Combat' perks - 1 per 20 points in combat skills. These can be chosen from the Combat perks in Power-Ups 2 and any combat-related perks found elsewhere.

You may further get Z 'Style' perks - 1 per 10 points in a martial arts style. These can only be chosen from the perks listed for that specific combat style.

X, Y, and Z are separate allotments.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Langy

I think a very strict reading of the rules may prove you right, but that the intent was probably this:

You get X 'General' perks. These can be chosen from any group in Power-Ups 2 except the Combat perks.

You may also get Y 'Combat' perks - 1 per 20 points in combat skills. These can be chosen from the Combat perks in Power-Ups 2 and any combat-related perks found elsewhere.

You may further get Z 'Style' perks - 1 per 10 points in a martial arts style. These can only be chosen from the perks listed for that specific combat style.

X, Y, and Z are separate allotments.

That's basically what Kromm is saying, except that he is also including Magic perks.

The problem is, as far as I can tell, that means though you can't just take Strongbow or even Concealed Carry Permit unless you have the appropriate skill points. Other people seem to be saying that that's not the case, and you can take those perks just by calling them "General Perks" instead but that's not how I read it, and I'm completely baffled that they do. I really wish they'd explain their reasoning.

I also wish that Kromm would pop back in and clarify the deal with "Social/Style Perks" like Concealed Carry Permit. Is it really his intention that you need 20 points in Guns or whatever to get one in GURPS? Probably not.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That's basically what Kromm is saying, except that he is also including Magic perks.

The problem is, as far as I can tell, that means though you can't just take Strongbow or even Concealed Carry Permit unless you have the appropriate skill points. Other people seem to be saying that that's not the case, and you can take those perks just by calling them "General Perks" instead but that's not how I read it, and I'm completely baffled that they do. I really wish they'd explain their reasoning.

I also wish that Kromm would pop back in and clarify the deal with "Social/Style Perks" like Concealed Carry Permit. Is it really his intention that you need 20 points in Guns or whatever to get one in GURPS? Probably not.

You may have missed this part of my post:

You get X 'General' perks. These can be chosen from any group in Power-Ups 2 except the Combat perks.

You may also get Y 'Combat' perks - 1 per 20 points in combat skills. These can be chosen from the Combat perks in Power-Ups 2 and any combat-related perks found elsewhere.

Concealed Carry Permit isn't listed in the Combat section. It's one of the 'combat-related perks found elsewhere' perks. Thus, it can be bought as a Combat perk, but it can also be bought as a 'General' perk.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Langy

Concealed Carry Permit isn't listed in the Combat section. It's one of the 'combat-related perks found elsewhere' perks. Thus, it can be bought as a Combat perk, but it can also be bought as a 'General' perk.

It is, however, a Style Perk of several Styles. Therefore it seems to fit Kromm's definition of "Style Perk".

[Langy]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It is, however, a Style Perk of several Styles. Therefore it seems to fit Kromm's definition of "Style Perk".

Yes, but that means you can buy it as a 'Style Perk', too. So you could buy it in one of three ways:

1. As a 'General' Perk.
2. As a 'Combat' Perk.
3. As a 'Style' Perk.

These three ways all have different allotments. Let's use a random character with 100 CP total, 50 from combat skills and 30 in a single style. He can have 4 'General' perks, 2 'Combat' perk, and 3 'Style' perks.

He currently has the following perks:

Style Familiarity (Combat)

Honest Face (General)
Base (General)
Cross-Trained Guns (Pistol) (General OR Combat)

Off-Hand Weapon Training (Style)
Akimbo (Style)

He currently has up to 1 Combat perk slot, up to 2 General perk slots, and up to 1 Style perk slot, but only has 3 perk slots total.

He wants to buy Concealed Carry Permit, which is one of the perks of his combat style. It can fit in any of his three slots. He buys it. His maximum slot numbers haven't changed, but he now only has 2 perk slots total.

He next buys Grip Mastery, which is a Combat perk in his style. He now has up to 1 Combat perk, up to 1 General perk, and up to 1 Style perk - he can choose any perk. His current perks are:

Style Familiarity (Combat)
Concealed Carry Permit (General OR Combat OR Style)

Honest Face (General)
Base (General)
Cross-Trained Guns (Pistol) (General OR Combat)

Off-Hand Weapon Training (Style)
Akimbo (Style)
Grip Mastery (Combat OR Style)

If we switched out Concealed Carry Permit for Ground Guard (Combat Perk not in his Style), he'd have 0 Combat perk slots, 1 General perk slot, and 0 Style perk slots left.

Calculate 'perk slots left' by the most-beneficial arrangement for the character.

Alternatively, have people state 'I'm buying this into my Combat perk allotment' or something, but that's a little silly.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Langy

Yes, but that means you can buy it as a 'Style Perk', too. So you could buy it in one of three ways:

1. As a 'General' Perk.
2. As a 'Combat' Perk.
3. As a 'Style' Perk.

Why do you think you can just retitle a "Combat" or "Style" as a "General" perk and then take it?

Again:

Originally Posted by Power Ups 2 page 4

Regardless of the campaign's limit on perks, it's recommended that the GM limit fighters to one combat perk per 20 points in combat, military, and/or police skills, and then allow one extra perk per 10 points spent on the skills and techniques of a combative character template, fighting style, or similar abilities package that offers combat perks.

If you can just rename that Combat Perk as a General Perk then how is that actually limiting the character to the skill-based limit at all?

Martial Arts is even more restrictive, of course, as it only has the skill-based "slots".

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It's unlikely that "real" longbowman were all 380 point characters. If you were modeling the archers that served on the Mary Rose, or fought at Crécy how would you do it? Surely not as 380 point characters?

True. Those are NPCs and I don't have to worry about their point cost.

My problem is when people tell me that the RAW allows you to purchase "Style" or "Combat" perks above the 1/20 or 1/10 limits, which as far as can tell neither Power Ups 2, Martial Arts or Kromm's comments here actually supports. So either I'm reading these wrong, or they are.

I say that Kromm's explanation in this thread is RAW. It's how I read PU2 too (not that that's important), which doesn't cover Magic Perks but I'd assume that the book covering that have similar rules as PU2. So if "people" are proposing something else, they are not RAW.

[Dragondog]

You cannot, by RAW, rename perks to move them to another class.

Cross-Trained Guns (Pistol) is a skill perk and Concealed Carry Permit is a social perk so they can be bought as general perks. If they're part of your style, they can be bought as style perks too.

And in my opinion, if Martial Arts, or similar books, list skill or social perks as combat perks, you can buy them as combat perks too.