Perk Limit

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by malloyd

The actual rules are supposed to be "whatever limits the GM wants to set".

As I understand the suggested rules though, I think part of your problem is wanting to divide the *perks* among Magical, Style and General. AFAICT that's not the intent. Your *slots* are divided among those categories, but any particular perk might conceivably go into any of three kinds of slots, if a Martial Arts and Magical Style you belong to both happened to list it.

Suppose for example you've taken the Onyx Path. DR is on the Lich template so Special Exercises (DR 1) is a legitimate magical perk for that style. It's also a reasonable style perk for many martial arts, Shaolin has it, albeit with the Tough Skin limitation, presumably a more cinematic version would allow it straight. In some settings it might be possible to acquire it through religious deprivation exercises taught by the Order of Desert Hermits, which wouldn't be either kind of style, so in this model would be a general perk. If you are an Onyx Path initiate with a Rainbow belt in Greater Shaolin who once studied with the Desert Hermits you can take it in any of those perk slots.

Then when does the 1 Style Perk per 20 points in combat skills and techniques actually kick in? Why can't I just take those as General Perks?

[Langy]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Then when does the 1 Style Perk per 20 points in combat skills and techniques actually kick in? Why can't I just take those as General Perks?

Makes sense to me.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Langy

Makes sense to me.

What makes sense?

[Langy]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What makes sense?

Coulda sworn you had said:

"Then when does the 1 Style Perk per 20 points in combat skills and techniques actually kick in? When I can't just take those as General Perks?"

Anyways, that's what I suggest. The 1 style perk limit kicks in when you can't take it as a general perk any longer.

Basically, how I imagine it works like this:

You can get Total CP/25 Perks (any perks!) normally. You can get one extra 'Style Perk' per 20 points in combat skills and techniques, or one in your style per 10 points in combat skills/techniques. You can also get an extra 'Magic Perk' per 20 points in spells, etc.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Langy

Coulda sworn you had said:

"Then when does the 1 Style Perk per 20 points in combat skills and techniques actually kick in? When I can't just take those as General Perks?"

Anyways, that's what I suggest. The 1 style perk limit kicks in when you can't take it as a general perk any longer.

Basically, how I imagine it works like this:

You can get Total CP/25 Perks (any perks!) normally. You can get one extra 'Style Perk' per 20 points in combat skills and techniques, or one in your style per 10 points in combat skills/techniques. You can also get an extra 'Magic Perk' per 20 points in spells, etc.

Okay, but that's a lot of Perks. I generally don't see characters who need more than the general slots, do you? It seems kind of pointless to have slots at all.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Then when does the 1 Style Perk per 20 points in combat skills and techniques actually kick in?

Always. These are intended to allow people who didn't specify a style at all access to some perks.

Why can't I just take those as General Perks?

You often can take stuff you are calling General Perks. You can take anything in those slots you can make some sort of plausible connection to your combat (or magical) skills for. Unlike the 1/10 slots, the 1/20 slots aren't limited to anything listed under the Styles you bought Style Familiarities for. You get them even if you have no Style Familiarities at all.

Mind you I think the whole scheme of linking number of perks to skill points is ridiculous, and it does lead to some nonsensical results, but Kromm's description seems fairly clear. I think you're trying to read too much into the various names. "General", "Style" and "Magical" aren't being used as reserved words, which perks you can buy into which kinds of slots are judgement calls in except the 1/10 points ones, which are limited to those listed with the Style Familiarity under consideration.

Incidentally, it appears to be intended that you can buy that 1/10 for each style for which you have a Style Familiarity, counting the skill points in each. Suppose you buy Karate [10] and Judo [10] and buy two style familiarities out of your general allotment, say SF (Hsing I Chuan) and SF (Jeet Kune Do), both of which list Judo and Karate as skills. You can buy one perk you can convince the GM is somehow related to Judo or Karate (the 1/20 points), both perks listed under Hsing I Chuan (the 2 you get from that 20/10) and two chosen from the list of 6 under Jeet Kune Do (from that 20/10).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Always. These are intended to allow people who didn't specify a style at all access to some perks.

If you can just take them as one of your 1/25 total character points Perks instead, how is the 1/20 of Combat Skills even really a limit? Except in the unlikely event you already have 6+ perks and want more?

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you can just take them as one of your 1/25 total character points Perks instead, how is the 1/20 of Combat Skills even really a limit? Except in the unlikely event you already have 6+ perks and want more?

Why spend the 1/25 general perks on stuff I can spend the 1/20 combat perks on? I can use the general perks for other stuff.

I would start spending the most restrictive perks first. Then the less restrictive ones and last the least restrictive ones. If I needed that many perks.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

Why spend the 1/25 general perks on stuff I can spend the 1/20 combat perks on? I can use the general perks for other stuff.

Because 20 points in combat skills and techniques is a lot of points. Say you are a 75 point archer and you want Strong Bow and Special Exercises: Arm ST (2). Do you need 60 points in Bow in order to do that? Or can you just take them with your three general Perks?

What Kromm seems to saying is that you need 60 points in Bow, or 30 points in Bow with an Archery Style because those "Style Perks" aren't available with the regular perk limits. Martial Arts and Power Ups 2 both seem to support this reading. However the consensus here seems to be that I'm wrong.

But if I am wrong, then really why does Power Ups 2 say:

Originally Posted by Power Ups 2 page 4

Regardless of the campaign’s limit on perks, it’s recommended that the GM limit fighters to one combat perk per 20 points in combat, military, and/or police skills, and then allow one extra perk per 10 points spent on the skills and techniques of a combative character template, fighting style, or similar abilities package that offers combat perks.

That seems to be pretty clear that what PU2 calls Combat Perks (and what Kromm wants to call Style Perks, here) are subject to this special limit and can't be taken above that. How am I misreading this?

Originally Posted by malloyd

Because you do want more. There are lots of quite useful perks out there, many of which specialize by skill (and so fill a lot of slots if you want them for multiple skills). It's not hard to come up at least one per good skill your character has that would make sense.

I've been running GURPS 4e since it came out. I barely see players taking any perks at all. At most 1-2 per character. Something's wrong with my players?

[Kalzazz]

I have found in games where the perk limit is strictly enforced it tends to result in very high weapons skills, like Guns MG 30 to get all the perks you wanted for Guns MG