Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

[Purple Haze]

I recall that in the 80's at least shotguns were essentially unregulated at least compared to other weapons. I knew of several FoF's and a couple of companies that converted Bren guns to .410 gauge and used them quite openly. An actual friend had a .410 gauge BAR.

So it might be worth investigate shot gun caliber weapons. You can still fire slugs and substantial quantities of ammo are going to be much less noticed.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Purple Haze

I recall that in the 80's at least shotguns were essentially unregulated at least compared to other weapons. I knew of several FoF's and a couple of companies that converted Bren guns to .410 gauge and used them quite openly. An actual friend had a .410 gauge BAR.

Cool!

The Rangers are going to need at least two man-portable weapons with real firepower, but still small enough to smuggle inside normal vehicles or even hide among sufficiently large tools when in disguise. I had been thinking about Bren guns, illegally cut-down and modified of course.

Originally Posted by Purple Haze

So it might be worth investigate shot gun caliber weapons. You can still fire slugs and substantial quantities of ammo are going to be much less noticed.

I think that common brands of hunting shotguns that the Ranger armourers then absolutely butcher to make them compact and concealable would be a somewhat popular choice for taking on murderous human magicians who might command some supernatural creatures. Lot of firepower in a small package, no possibility of forensically tracing the projectiles left at scenes, fairly large shells to police after a firefight and if anyone is arrested with one they could have gotten it off a metal shop chav who is good with his hands.

[SimonAce]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Cool!

The Rangers are going to need at least two man-portable weapons with real firepower, but still small enough to smuggle inside normal vehicles or even hide among sufficiently large tools when in disguise. I had been thinking about Bren guns, illegally cut-down and modified of course.


I think that common brands of hunting shotguns that the Ranger armourers then absolutely butcher to make them compact and concealable would be a somewhat popular choice for taking on murderous human magicians who might command some supernatural creatures. Lot of firepower in a small package, no possibility of forensically tracing the projectiles left at scenes, fairly large shells to police after a firefight and if anyone is arrested with one they could have gotten it off a metal shop chav who is good with his hands.

Making a suppressed machine carbine is trivial for a good armorer with modern tools if he can get ammo and a recipe . They do it all the time in Pakistan and the Philippines .

Just give you hunter guys some homemade guns with brass catchers and burn bags with thermite or whatever if the guns are used for the mission and viola, no forensic trace and a lot less noise

Short shotguns work fine too and give a lock stock two smoking barrels flavor.

Those sawed off double guns are actually a better choice than the harder to get pumps (which only hold one more round in a short configuration anyway) since they can't be short stroked and can be run just as fast or faster with practice.

Also shotguns can be suppressed pretty easily if needed and such devices can even be permitted in the UK .

A suppressed shotgun with subsonic shells is pretty effective a close range and an over/under double with extractors instead of ejectors could lay down some adequate firepower, muffled so as to not sound like a gun and not leaving shells behind.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by SimonAce

A more direct answer to your question since I may have misunderstood your intent, other than a few military rifles like the Enfield IWS and variants and some very high end sporting guns, the UK really doesn't make firearms anymore.

The civilian market is very small both from culture and severe gun laws and military orders also are small. The UK military in fact is so poorly supplied that all of NATO calls them the borrowers

http://jamescleverly.blogspot.com/20...borrowers.html

Pretty much everything other than those would be an import or old.

The first few weapons would have been acquired in 1991-1992. The acquisition of weaponry would have been stepped up in 1995-1996.

So far, these weapons would have been acquired in order to arm a secret backup team of supernatural-savvy royal bodyguards, to provide the occasional sidearm for investigators of the supernatural when dealing with dangerous people and in order for a close-knit group of former military men and police to use for the development of theoretical tactics and procedures when confronting the paranormal. The operational deployment of conspiracy members as a paramilitary supernatural police force had not yet been approved (nor indeed were there many who'd have contemplated such a thing).

Such contemplation started in 1998, but only among a tiny minority of those in the know. It acquired a slightly greater following in the years 1999-2000, as more and more supernatural crimes came to the attention of the group. By June 2001, previous coyness about arming the people responsible for the supernatural security of the Queen disappeared overnight and in the months following, some serious weaponry would have been acquired for that role. Much of that could have been done through influencing the London Met to adopt heavier weaponry, of course, which was greatly eased by the new climate in law enforcement post-9/11 later in the year.

By 2005, the conspiracy would have possessed a considerable stockpile of weapons, but they would have been neither very standardised nor intended for anything but a reserve role if all else failed.* Maybe half-a-dozen weapons of each type that had been developed as the Shadow Court's theoretical new 'anti-supernatural weapons', for eventual issue to police and military units after the reveal wold have been used by the small informal group of supernatural infantry and police tactics planning committee established by HRH Duke of Edinburgh. But only for training and experimentation.

It was that year, however, that the Queen ordered her group of training officers to take an active role against the supernatural. This changed the character of the conspiracy and was far from popular in many quarters, though some among the Rangers were ecstatic.

Only at that time would they have started to acquire weapons consciously for the purpose of clandestine or covert direct action against the supernatural. Obviously, many weapons acquired for experimentation or training purposes would have fitted that role, but they were neither standardised nor numerous. If possible, however, the people intended to protect the Queen from threats that ordinary police or soldiers wouldn't have been able to handle would have possessed some military weaponry, which would then have been acquired from 1992-2002, with the greater numbers likely to come at the end of that period.

So, overall, I'm not only looking for weapons made in the UK today, but also ten or twenty years ago. Or weapons which could have existed in stockpiles in the country then. That very much makes the SLR and the Browning Hi-Power viable choices, as stockpiles of SLRs would have been decomissioned gradually over the period I'm considering and the Browning Hi-Powers used by some police units as well as special military units were replaced by Glocks and SIGs in the 90s to 00s. Having a member of the conspiracy involved with someone licensed to run a deactivated weapons parts shop could allow them access to weapons fairly easily reactivated in their extensive workshop, too.

For brand-new weapons acquired through grey market channels, there are still some choices in the period. Some HK weapons have been made under licence in the UK, after all, and there are smaller factories making modified versions of military-grade weapons.

BAE owned Royal Ordnance and either Royal Ordnance or BAE bought HK at some point in the 90s and owned it until 2002. Confusing, but it boiled down to HK being at least partly British-owned for a short while. There is/was a factory in Britain that used to, at least, make some licenced HK weapons, inc., perhaps, some MP5-brands. I just don't know which models, how much and which precise years it operated. For that matter, HK still has a fairly large warehouse and office in Nottingham. Not sure about the status of any production capability in the UK, but BAE has its smallarms facilities in Nottingham as well.

Evidently protesters in the UK feel that it is plausible that HK might have used its United Kingdom offices (and factory) to make and sell weapons to regimes that the German government wouldn't allow them to ship to. They protested about it and everything.** So I wonder what models and variants of HK weapons were made in the UK or at the very least transhipped there.

Parker Hale and FR Ordnance International/Imperial Defence Services Ltd. have both built specialised firearms for tactical uses at some point in the past. Was such work going on around 2000? Are there any other such UK-based operations?

These are the kinds of questions I'm wondering about.

*While intervening in a paranormal attack against the Queen or other members of the Royal Family would undoubtedly reveal the the existence of a secret group of bodyguards (as well as rendering them liable for prosecution for a range of offences), everyone involved accepts that this would be a lesser evil than allowing Buckingham Palce or Windsor to suffer an equivalent of the Nepal Royal Massacre.
**I'm not saying that the accusations of the protestors were necessarily accurate (some are obviously stupid). I am saying that unless HK actually had some kind of a factory with the capability to make smallarms in the UK at some point, it would have been fairly easy to demolish any such claims publicly and leave the leaders of the protestors with a considerable amount of egg on their face.

Originally Posted by SimonAce

That being said, the need for secrecy aside covering up the import of a few shipments of small arms and ammo seems fairly trivial for someone with the resources of the monarchy.

Well, those resources really only boil down to social influence. The Queen might indeed know people who know people in the intelligence and military procurement business. These people could plausibly use social influence in order to convince British industrialists to manipulate end-user certificates, in order (or so they believe) to enable Whitehall to carry out one of its pieces of underhanded diplomacy, i.e. shipping armaments to somewhere the official policy is a ban on arms sales, but the Foreign Office wants to keep a friendly relationship with a bulwark of British interests while assuring Europe and/or the US that they are absolutely onboard with an embargo. Apart from the weapons never leaving Britain and the real shadowy influence behind the deal being royal instead of senior figures at Whitehall or the Circus; nothing much out of the ordinary.

By contrast, people asked to look the other way while unsavoury looking characters smuggle crates of stuff into Britain is much more likely to go awry. People who might not blink at 'technically' breaking the law in order to (they believe) supply a Sandhurst-educated tyrant with more weaponry for 'suppression of domestic disorder', despite an inconvenient arms embargo against him, might not be quite so blasé about Turkish or Albanian gangsters smuggling guns into the UK, for unknown purposes.

The Foreign Service and the intelligence services are used to subordinating legalities to diplomatic and strategic concerns when it comes to business outside the UK. That doesn't mean that they'd see it quite the same way if they thought they were being asked to be complicit in a terrorist attack on UK soil. It's extremely important to avoid any suggestion that you need the weapons at home, instead pretending only that you are going to ship them to a different foreign buyer than is listed on the end-user certificate. That way, people can more effectively wash their hands of the whole business.

[Figleaf23]

When I'm hunting monsters, I always like a little edge -- a bigger hole, a few more bullets thrown, and as that guy on Deadliest Warrior always says, options.

I also like being able to use a buddy's mags if I run out, get spare parts and buy ammo nice and easy. Accordingly, I offer the following, perhaps dilatory, views related to the subject:


Pistol choices:

Off-the-shelf option

-Glock 23 (.40 S&W)
+
-Glock 18 Auto 9mmP

Custom option

-Rebuild Glock 18s in .40 S&W with CZ75Auto spare-mag-foregrip system


Main longarm choices

Don't bother with the lighter weapons like SMGs, PDWs and carbines. I doubt there's a monster hunter alive who misses two pounds of carrying capacity instead of more damage when it's monster-killin' time! Also, the whole superstructure of your inventory can be simplified by use of flexible platforms.

Off the shelf options:

-Steyr AUG (Barrel convertibility makes this an attractive weapon system for the monster hunter who needs flexibility, including service as a small caliber LMG.)

-Mk 48 LMG, for heavier duty

Custom Options:

-Refurbish M14s to your spec, similar perhaps to the Mk 14 EBR or even consider a bullpup configuration

-Refurbish M14A1s to your spec for service as LMGs.


Shotgun choices

Off the shelf

Consider giving everyone the option of exotic shotgun ammo
with a lightweight under-barrel shotgun system, ideally capable of handling both 2.75 and 3" shells.

Custom option

In addition to underbarrel STGs as standard equipment, for dedicated shotgunners, cut down a few old pump-action 10Gs, and slap a few tactical mods on them.


This inventory should cover your real needs nicely while limiting your basic ammo requirements to 5 types.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by SimonAce

Making a suppressed machine carbine is trivial for a good armorer with modern tools if he can get ammo and a recipe . They do it all the time in Pakistan and the Philippines.

While I'd not consider it 'trivial'*, I agree that building the guns from scratch can be done.

The concern is to ensure that the guns are, in GURPS terms, at least Malf. Crit and preferably Malf. Very Reliable. That you can get in factory-made TL8 weapons, but it might be more difficult to do at home.

Granted, the conspiracy originally intended their machine shop to build prototypes of modern weapons modified for monster hunting. This was in order to be able to suggest already existing designs for adoptation once the government discovers the supernatural and starts to make the necessary adjustments to law enforcement and military servicse.

As a result, they would have an armoury workshop ideal for building one-of-a-kind prototypes of high-quality. After the Rangers went operational, some of the changes made included buying new machines for the armoury to be able to handle the maintainence, re-barrelling and ammunition reloading for a much higher number of weapons and a greatly increased pace of training. Even with all that nice gear and two highly qualified gunsmiths (who can train assistants), though, I don't see it being all that practical to build everything they need themselves.

Suppressed carbines, though, may be a speciality item that they are best off doing completely in-house, only buying what components are excluded from the scope of UK firearms legislation and can be explained with a cover story like 'Paintball League' (primarily furniture like stocks; but also some optics).

I thought they might perhaps like to refurbish a stock of decommissioned Sterling SMGs, making high-quality suppressors for them and rails to mount optics and lights. Seems like it would do the job just fine.

*Even if not formally educated as machinists or gunsmiths, many of the unlicenced gunsmiths in tribal areas are highly skilled at what they do. As someone who can't even sew buttons, connect up a washing machine or draw a stick-figure without being mocked for having ten thumbs on two left hands, I'd never call the skill set of a competent machnist, mechanic or gunsmith 'trivial', even if the methods and tools used are low-tech.

Originally Posted by SimonAce

Just give you hunter guys some homemade guns with brass catchers and burn bags with thermite or whatever if the guns are used for the mission and viola, no forensic trace and a lot less noise

For a lot of missions, they'll only draw sidearms to wear for self-protection. If they really have to shoot, they'll prefer using a disposable handgun or shotgun, something obtained through one of the UK gun collection drives (and one of their people with the police) and sanitised in the armoury.

While the military-grade weapons are the most interesting*, they are definitely something that they obtain, but hope they never have to use for real. On the few occasions they have been forced to deploy them by adverse circumstances, it has most often been in rural areas, and the response time of the police thus slower than if they used them in central London.

*Not to mention one of the weakest links in their secrecy, hence a potential sources of adventuring tension both for games where the PCs are Queen's Paranormal Rangers (or other members of the Shadow Court) and for games set in the same setting, but featuring this conspiracy as a potential rival, foe or ally.

Originally Posted by SimonAce

Short shotguns work fine too and give a lock stock two smoking barrels flavor.

Those sawed off double guns are actually a better choice than the harder to get pumps (which only hold one more round in a short configuration anyway) since they can't be short stroked and can be run just as fast or faster with practice.

Also shotguns can be suppressed pretty easily if needed and such devices can even be permitted in the UK .

A suppressed shotgun with subsonic shells is pretty effective a close range and an over/under double with extractors instead of ejectors could lay down some adequate firepower, muffled so as to not sound like a gun and not leaving shells behind.

I love the idea of shotguns as common 'covert'-ish weapons with the firepower to take down supernatural foes.

I'd want at least two grades. One supershort whippet pistol and one with a barrel length between 14"-20", a pistol grip and a folding or retractable stock.

I agree that doubles (in 12G, 20G or .410 depending on the size of the wielder) are probably their best candidates for modication into the smallest shotgun pistols, but I think pump action could work for Bulk -5* combat shotguns. Could buy them legally as hunting weapons and then heavily modify them.

UK law restricts shotgun (and other weapons, I think too) magazine capacity to a grand total of 2 rounds. One extra in the chamber if the design allows. Judging by how similar Icelandic laws are applied, though, I think that the knick-nacks used to limit magazine size are actually rather easy to remove. Certainly they would be so for a qualified armourer in a well-stocked workshop.

I don't know about the availability of the various models of shotguns in the UK, though. Seems like weapons designed with larger magazine sizes would be viewed with suspicion, since that feature would not be functional if you meant to obey the law and only mattered if you were planning to remove the limiter.

I'm wondering if they could obtain Benelli semi-autos in any numbers. Look like they'd be good candidates for modification, of which not much is needed. The Super 90 would be ideal, because you can switch between pump (exotic ammo) and semi-auto (everything else) action. I have no idea whether you can just buy a UK-legal Benelli Super 90 in a hunting store there, though. If you can, I don't know if the magazine is completely ruined or just fitted with a gizmo that's easy to remove to make the gun fully functional again. Also, I don't know how much you can cut off the barrel of a hunting model Benelli without damaging the action, magazine or something else vital.

Gun-savvy forumites can suggest other specific models of pump-action or semi-auto shotguns which especially lend themselves to being cut-down into riot guns with folding stocks. I'd want guns which don't have vital features near the end of the barrel, obviously, and they'd have to be able to fit an extended magazine with at least 6 shells, preferably more.

That, of course, kind of limits us to a barrel length equal to the extended magazine, but I suppose that could vary between shotgun brands. The Remington 870 can easily fit 7 shells in the magazine even with a riot length barrel. Any brand that allows the same would be fine.

Hell, a Remington can be cut down to a 14" barrel and still retain a magazine for 4 shells and one in the chamber. That could be a very handy little weapon. Is this possible for any other shotguns? Is the Remington magazine particularly compact or sited further to the rear than with other brands?

[dcarson]

While it doesn't give you standardized weapons many of the people might have something that was brought back from a war as a trophy by a recent ancestor.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by dcarson

While it doesn't give you standardized weapons many of the people might have something that was brought back from a war as a trophy by a recent ancestor.

Indeed.

Those who have paranormal gifts of their own might do well do use a weapon with a history and a metaphysical connection to their family. Somehow, such things seem to partially make up for the interference technological artifacts cause in magical energies. Better yet if the weapons can be refurbished and maintained with old school tools only, taking care to retain a classic appearance.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted by Purple Haze

Set up a workshop, get some immigrants from Pashtun, and manufacture anything you want. They make some pretty heavy weapons in Darra.

I was thinking the same thing! It's crazy what they can make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FinRqCocwGE#t=4m0s

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

When I'm hunting monsters, I always like a little edge -- a bigger hole, a few more bullets thrown, and as that guy on Deadliest Warrior always says, options.

I also like being able to use a buddy's mags if I run out, get spare parts and buy ammo nice and easy. Accordingly, I offer the following, perhaps dilatory, views related to the subject:

I don't know how much of the thread you read, let alone the two other threads related to the setting, the conspiracy of people in the know and the fighting styles of this group of monster hunters.

In any event, the short version is that while the group has a paramilitary police mission, they are effectively a criminal conspiracy, consisting of both private citizens and current or former members of the armed services and the SO14 branch (Royalty Proection) of Protection Command of the London Metropolitan Police Service.

They may have astonishing social connections for a criminal conspiracy, seeing as they originate from a close circle of friends and acquintances around HM Queen Elizabeth II, but they don't actually have any legal authority to carry or own weapons, let alone use them to hunt monsters. In fact, most people in the world, as well as the elected government, don't believe in monsters or magic.

The primary purpose of the conspiracy is to prepare the United Kingdom of Great Britain and to a lesser extent the Commonwealth for the new world that they are moving toward. At some point*, the supernatural will become public. At that point, the police, intelligence, security and armed services will have to make a lot of changes quickly, to make up for lost time. What insiders sometimes wryly refer to as the 'Shadow Court' (or the Dee Club, Bacon Appreciation Society or other tongue-in-cheek names) aims to have the knowledge, expertise and connections to help them do so.

To that end, they've been investigating the occult; to learn how to minimise the harm from dangerous aspects as well as research beneficial applications. They've developed magical theory by building on the work of scholars in previous eras, before the last waning of the influence of the paranormal. And they've closely scrutined any strange reports of criminal activity with apparent supernatural connections, learning what threats to expect and doing theoretical studies on how to counter them.

Some members of the conspiracy have been senior law enforcement officers, administrators of security or intelligence services or military staff officers. These people have done planning work on necessary organisational and doctrinal changes within their respective fields, developing plans which could be implemented as soon as the government comes to accept the supernatural.

Some military and police members even developed methods of arrest and neutralisation of supernatural threats, which could be taught to members of special units within the armed services and police once the problem is publicly acknowledged.

The conspiracy was never intended to be a secret police or paramilitary force. That came across almost by accident, as various senior people in it found it difficult to accept having prior knowledge about dangers to British subjects, dangers which the police was not prepared to handle effectively, and do nothing. So in 2005, the small group of conspiracy members who had been working on experimental fighting styles and weaponry went out as vigilantes and stopped a monster from slaughtering dozens of people.

This was done with the approval of HM Queen Elizabeth II, but not everyone within the conspiracy agreed. To some, breaking the law this flagrantly is too risky and likely to destroy their chances of influencing the transition once the government becomes aware of the threat. That, in turn, will eventually mean that more people die and Britain is less ready to face the future.

All of which means that weaponry is not chosen merely for effectiveness on the battlefield, but must carefully balance firepower with factors such as unobtrusiveness and concealability, ease of availability through covert channels and the amount and distinguishability of any forensic evidence left.

*Discreet attempts to convince people in authority have thus far not yielded encouraging results. About the best that can be said about them is that that the members of the conspiracy who approached acquintances at Whitehall have at least not been mocked in the media.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Pistol choices:

Off-the-shelf option

Pistols aren't available off-the-shelf in the UK. Even police officers can only draw them in special circumstances and only if they have been trained as an Authorised Firearms Officer, which I believe describes less than 20% of the personnel of UK police forces.

In this thread, I've been exploring which models of pistol would be available on the UK grey market* or as surplus which contacts or conspiracy members within the police or armed services could perhaps disappear.

No weapons chambered in .40 S&W are at all likely; as that's not a caliber much used in the UK. For full-size pistols I'm leaning toward the Browning Hi-Power, as that was in use by special units (such as the SEG and CO19/SO19/SCO19) within the London Met before being replaced by the Glock 17 in the years between 1992 and 2005. It was also the issue pistol for officers and specialists in the UK armed services, all the way up to 2013. It was replaced in special operations circles earlier, though, with the SAS/SBS/Royal Marine Commandos/etc. obtaining SIGs through an UOR deal. That would mean that with the right contacts at the right time (both fairly plausible), the conspiracy could obtain both surplus military and police Brownings.

For smaller weapons, I think they'll have an unholy mess. Automatics like the Webley & Scott MP, Beretta Mod 1951, Walther PP and maybe PPK (all in .32 ACP); courtesy of the London Met Protection Command. Then revolvers; like S&W Model 10s and 36s and a bunch of old Webley and Enfield revolvers 'Fitzed' to make them concealable. Some in .380/200, some in .38 Spl and some in .455 Webley. Though having two good armourers and a well-stocked machine shop means that at least they'll all be well maintained and if necessary, can be refurbished up real nice.

*That is, from legitimate armament companies, with end-user certificates and everything. Only that the end-user certificates don't match where the weapons eventually end up.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Don't bother with the lighter weapons like SMGs, PDWs and carbines. I doubt there's a monster hunter alive who misses two pounds of carrying capacity instead of more damage when it's monster-killin' time!

While the monster hunters might not care about the weight, they (or at least the people behind them who arrange for the weapons) should care very much about the possibility of concealing the weapons in their vehicles; or being able to carry them under parkas or other form-hiding clothing; or concealed in briefcases, toolboxes, sports bags and other convenient containers compatible with disguises. If the police see them with weapons, they'll be arrested and the conspiracy might be blown.

Hence, one of the most important factors* about picking weapons is maximising their firepower while minimising their footprint; both in terms of bulk, noise and the forensic evidence they leave behind.

*Aside from the possibility of obtaining them secretly using the methods discussed in this thread.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Also, the whole superstructure of your inventory can be simplified by use of flexible platforms.

Ideally, yes. But in practice, secrecy in obtaining the weapons and ammunition, as well as a low operational footprint*, far outweighs considerations of economy when it comes to picking the weapons. On the scale of things, weapons are a fairly small part of the total budget and spending an extra 20%, 50% or even 100% on them for extra secrecy is fine. In any event, buying spare parts won't be easy, as any part that is necessary for the operation of the weapon is classified as a 'Firearm' under UK law and thus restricted quite harshly, not to mention that anomalous purchases of such items by any individual or shop might trigger official attention. So I think that they'll use CNC and barrel-making machines to make their own spare parts as much as possible. That's probably going to be more expensive than buying them in bulk, but there's no help for it.

Ammo is a more relevant cost; especially as large capacities will tend to be noticed, but I've got thoughts about using reloading machines on site to minimise the need to buy it in bulk. In any case, exotic ammunition will have to be made on site. For anything that needs to be bought, the cover story used for the relevant licences will influence what chamberings are available. Anything not used much or at all in the UK will be avoided unless there is no other option; as it would be a red-flag for forensics as well as potentially raising eyebrows when you bought it.

*Low Bulk, preferably easy to disassemble for transport, easily supressed, easy to police brass, not an exotic caliber or otherwise noticable in what it leaves behind in forensic evidence.