Monster Hunting Guns Made in or Associated with the UK

[Purple Haze]

I recall that in the 80's at least shotguns were essentially unregulated at least compared to other weapons. I knew of several FoF's and a couple of companies that converted Bren guns to .410 gauge and used them quite openly. An actual friend had a .410 gauge BAR.

So it might be worth investigate shot gun caliber weapons. You can still fire slugs and substantial quantities of ammo are going to be much less noticed.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Purple Haze

I recall that in the 80's at least shotguns were essentially unregulated at least compared to other weapons. I knew of several FoF's and a couple of companies that converted Bren guns to .410 gauge and used them quite openly. An actual friend had a .410 gauge BAR.

Cool!

The Rangers are going to need at least two man-portable weapons with real firepower, but still small enough to smuggle inside normal vehicles or even hide among sufficiently large tools when in disguise. I had been thinking about Bren guns, illegally cut-down and modified of course.

Originally Posted by Purple Haze

So it might be worth investigate shot gun caliber weapons. You can still fire slugs and substantial quantities of ammo are going to be much less noticed.

I think that common brands of hunting shotguns that the Ranger armourers then absolutely butcher to make them compact and concealable would be a somewhat popular choice for taking on murderous human magicians who might command some supernatural creatures. Lot of firepower in a small package, no possibility of forensically tracing the projectiles left at scenes, fairly large shells to police after a firefight and if anyone is arrested with one they could have gotten it off a metal shop chav who is good with his hands.

[SimonAce]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Cool!

The Rangers are going to need at least two man-portable weapons with real firepower, but still small enough to smuggle inside normal vehicles or even hide among sufficiently large tools when in disguise. I had been thinking about Bren guns, illegally cut-down and modified of course.


I think that common brands of hunting shotguns that the Ranger armourers then absolutely butcher to make them compact and concealable would be a somewhat popular choice for taking on murderous human magicians who might command some supernatural creatures. Lot of firepower in a small package, no possibility of forensically tracing the projectiles left at scenes, fairly large shells to police after a firefight and if anyone is arrested with one they could have gotten it off a metal shop chav who is good with his hands.

Making a suppressed machine carbine is trivial for a good armorer with modern tools if he can get ammo and a recipe . They do it all the time in Pakistan and the Philippines .

Just give you hunter guys some homemade guns with brass catchers and burn bags with thermite or whatever if the guns are used for the mission and viola, no forensic trace and a lot less noise

Short shotguns work fine too and give a lock stock two smoking barrels flavor.

Those sawed off double guns are actually a better choice than the harder to get pumps (which only hold one more round in a short configuration anyway) since they can't be short stroked and can be run just as fast or faster with practice.

Also shotguns can be suppressed pretty easily if needed and such devices can even be permitted in the UK .

A suppressed shotgun with subsonic shells is pretty effective a close range and an over/under double with extractors instead of ejectors could lay down some adequate firepower, muffled so as to not sound like a gun and not leaving shells behind.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by SimonAce

Making a suppressed machine carbine is trivial for a good armorer with modern tools if he can get ammo and a recipe . They do it all the time in Pakistan and the Philippines.

While I'd not consider it 'trivial'*, I agree that building the guns from scratch can be done.

The concern is to ensure that the guns are, in GURPS terms, at least Malf. Crit and preferably Malf. Very Reliable. That you can get in factory-made TL8 weapons, but it might be more difficult to do at home.

Granted, the conspiracy originally intended their machine shop to build prototypes of modern weapons modified for monster hunting. This was in order to be able to suggest already existing designs for adoptation once the government discovers the supernatural and starts to make the necessary adjustments to law enforcement and military servicse.

As a result, they would have an armoury workshop ideal for building one-of-a-kind prototypes of high-quality. After the Rangers went operational, some of the changes made included buying new machines for the armoury to be able to handle the maintainence, re-barrelling and ammunition reloading for a much higher number of weapons and a greatly increased pace of training. Even with all that nice gear and two highly qualified gunsmiths (who can train assistants), though, I don't see it being all that practical to build everything they need themselves.

Suppressed carbines, though, may be a speciality item that they are best off doing completely in-house, only buying what components are excluded from the scope of UK firearms legislation and can be explained with a cover story like 'Paintball League' (primarily furniture like stocks; but also some optics).

I thought they might perhaps like to refurbish a stock of decommissioned Sterling SMGs, making high-quality suppressors for them and rails to mount optics and lights. Seems like it would do the job just fine.

*Even if not formally educated as machinists or gunsmiths, many of the unlicenced gunsmiths in tribal areas are highly skilled at what they do. As someone who can't even sew buttons, connect up a washing machine or draw a stick-figure without being mocked for having ten thumbs on two left hands, I'd never call the skill set of a competent machnist, mechanic or gunsmith 'trivial', even if the methods and tools used are low-tech.

Originally Posted by SimonAce

Just give you hunter guys some homemade guns with brass catchers and burn bags with thermite or whatever if the guns are used for the mission and viola, no forensic trace and a lot less noise

For a lot of missions, they'll only draw sidearms to wear for self-protection. If they really have to shoot, they'll prefer using a disposable handgun or shotgun, something obtained through one of the UK gun collection drives (and one of their people with the police) and sanitised in the armoury.

While the military-grade weapons are the most interesting*, they are definitely something that they obtain, but hope they never have to use for real. On the few occasions they have been forced to deploy them by adverse circumstances, it has most often been in rural areas, and the response time of the police thus slower than if they used them in central London.

*Not to mention one of the weakest links in their secrecy, hence a potential sources of adventuring tension both for games where the PCs are Queen's Paranormal Rangers (or other members of the Shadow Court) and for games set in the same setting, but featuring this conspiracy as a potential rival, foe or ally.

Originally Posted by SimonAce

Short shotguns work fine too and give a lock stock two smoking barrels flavor.

Those sawed off double guns are actually a better choice than the harder to get pumps (which only hold one more round in a short configuration anyway) since they can't be short stroked and can be run just as fast or faster with practice.

Also shotguns can be suppressed pretty easily if needed and such devices can even be permitted in the UK .

A suppressed shotgun with subsonic shells is pretty effective a close range and an over/under double with extractors instead of ejectors could lay down some adequate firepower, muffled so as to not sound like a gun and not leaving shells behind.

I love the idea of shotguns as common 'covert'-ish weapons with the firepower to take down supernatural foes.

I'd want at least two grades. One supershort whippet pistol and one with a barrel length between 14"-20", a pistol grip and a folding or retractable stock.

I agree that doubles (in 12G, 20G or .410 depending on the size of the wielder) are probably their best candidates for modication into the smallest shotgun pistols, but I think pump action could work for Bulk -5* combat shotguns. Could buy them legally as hunting weapons and then heavily modify them.

UK law restricts shotgun (and other weapons, I think too) magazine capacity to a grand total of 2 rounds. One extra in the chamber if the design allows. Judging by how similar Icelandic laws are applied, though, I think that the knick-nacks used to limit magazine size are actually rather easy to remove. Certainly they would be so for a qualified armourer in a well-stocked workshop.

I don't know about the availability of the various models of shotguns in the UK, though. Seems like weapons designed with larger magazine sizes would be viewed with suspicion, since that feature would not be functional if you meant to obey the law and only mattered if you were planning to remove the limiter.

I'm wondering if they could obtain Benelli semi-autos in any numbers. Look like they'd be good candidates for modification, of which not much is needed. The Super 90 would be ideal, because you can switch between pump (exotic ammo) and semi-auto (everything else) action. I have no idea whether you can just buy a UK-legal Benelli Super 90 in a hunting store there, though. If you can, I don't know if the magazine is completely ruined or just fitted with a gizmo that's easy to remove to make the gun fully functional again. Also, I don't know how much you can cut off the barrel of a hunting model Benelli without damaging the action, magazine or something else vital.

Gun-savvy forumites can suggest other specific models of pump-action or semi-auto shotguns which especially lend themselves to being cut-down into riot guns with folding stocks. I'd want guns which don't have vital features near the end of the barrel, obviously, and they'd have to be able to fit an extended magazine with at least 6 shells, preferably more.

That, of course, kind of limits us to a barrel length equal to the extended magazine, but I suppose that could vary between shotgun brands. The Remington 870 can easily fit 7 shells in the magazine even with a riot length barrel. Any brand that allows the same would be fine.

Hell, a Remington can be cut down to a 14" barrel and still retain a magazine for 4 shells and one in the chamber. That could be a very handy little weapon. Is this possible for any other shotguns? Is the Remington magazine particularly compact or sited further to the rear than with other brands?

[dcarson]

While it doesn't give you standardized weapons many of the people might have something that was brought back from a war as a trophy by a recent ancestor.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by dcarson

While it doesn't give you standardized weapons many of the people might have something that was brought back from a war as a trophy by a recent ancestor.

Indeed.

Those who have paranormal gifts of their own might do well do use a weapon with a history and a metaphysical connection to their family. Somehow, such things seem to partially make up for the interference technological artifacts cause in magical energies. Better yet if the weapons can be refurbished and maintained with old school tools only, taking care to retain a classic appearance.

[Figleaf23]

Clearly you have some well developed ideas of what they might have, whereas I am remarking on a question of what they should obtain.

If .40 S&W is impractical, then I recommend making use of specialized ammo to help with the punching power of 9mm. I still recommend a pistol with selective fire capability to cover the whole territory of utility up to my recommended personal long-arms. Pistol configurations are also more discreet than SMGs or PDWs.

It is very wise of you to have armoury capabilities in-house, IMHO. If I were running the outfit, I would look at making significant use of it. I'd also look at taking in house all production for your special ammo needs.

Regarding the longarms, as I recommended, the use of shortened, folding, and bullpup configurations will aid in achieving your 'small footprint' objectives while also keeping punching power high and ammo complexity to a minimum (i.e. two very common NATO cartridges).

Taking all this into account, the organization could move to a very streamlined 5-platform (Glock 18, Steyr Aug in personal or LMG roles, a custom battle rifle, and the two shotguns), 5 ammo (three NATO standard -- 9mm, 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and shotgun loads 12G, and 10G), with the option to go down to 4 by dropping the big shotgun.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Clearly you have some well developed ideas of what they might have, whereas I am remarking on a question of what they should obtain.

I didn't have much of an idea when I started this thread; but it has proved very useful in firming up the concept. Even when I don't use the suggestions received from posters in their original form, they often encourage me to consider things from a different angle or to research a question I hadn't previously considered.

I'm still very interested in input on some questions about what modern weapons would be available to them on the grey market, i.e. through the manipulation of end-user certificates with the help of contacts within UK govermnent (and intelligence), British industry and foreign monarchies with close relationships with the UK. In order for a weapon to be available in that way, it has to be made in the UK or at least assembled there for transshipment elsewhere.

For instance, which models of HK firearms were/are made under licence in the UK? To what extent were smallarms from H&K built or assembled in the UK (for instance in the Nottingham facility) in the 90s (until 2002) while BAE owned Heckler & Koch? Since the late 80s, have any UK manufacturers made original or modified smallarms for special operations; other than FR Ordnance? What models has Parker Hale modified? And so on.

I also welcome more general speculation, even in the absence of such specialised knowledge*, as it will at the very least serve as a spur to further resarch and thought and could give rise to cool new ideas.

*Which would be the province of the HANSes, Roger Burton-Wests and Sam Cades of the world.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

If .40 S&W is impractical, then I recommend making use of specialized ammo to help with the punching power of 9mm.

Against supernaturals, it may be necessary to load some truly bizarre substances. Against anything that will leave a human body, it's best if the bullets are as mundane as possible and not tracable to anyone. That probably means reloaded brass with common target, police or military projectiles. Semi-wadcutters, steel or copper-plated, military FMJ and maybe some JHP from police armouries.

Best of all would be common rounds in the same chamberings as those of the old revolvers, re-activated surplus weapons and low-caliber cheap and nasty semi-automatics that are the only guns even relatively common among criminal gangs in the UK.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I still recommend a pistol with selective fire capability to cover the whole territory of utility up to my recommended personal long-arms. Pistol configurations are also more discreet than SMGs or PDWs.

It's possible to modify the Browning Hi-Power for full-auto functioning. I don't know if there are any pitfalls to this and if it can be made as reliable as a factory-made Beretta 93R, Glock 18 or similar weapons.

I also wonder about a small folding foregrip and how much it would interfere with CCW. It would make the weapon much more controllable, to be sure. Maybe you could carry it seperately, snap it on a rail-mount before action?

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

It is very wise of you to have armoury capabilities in-house, IMHO. If I were running the outfit, I would look at making significant use of it. I'd also look at taking in house all production for your special ammo needs.

Anything like iron, silver, gold or hawthorne baton ammunition obviously needs to be made specially by them. They'll reload all they can, too.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Regarding the longarms, as I recommended, the use of shortened, folding, and bullpup configurations will aid in achieving your 'small footprint' objectives while also keeping punching power high and ammo complexity to a minimum (i.e. two very common NATO cartridges).

True, but while I agree with the basic concept of shortened carbines with folding stocks in 5.56mm, I think we have to look at what models would be available to them through their British contacts.

They can do a lot of gunsmithing work themselves; as long as they obtain weapons to do it on. So what 5.56mm weapons are they most likely to be able to obtain through British industrialists or British supply officers, around 2001-2002 and again in 2005-2006?

Granted, the L85A1 (aka SA80) would be easily* available to them, but there's a reason the British Army had it essentially rebuilt. I'd want to avoid it if at all possible. The L85A2 would be different, but I just don't know if all of the modifications were done in Germany or if any UK factories owned by BAE or HK (then BAE-owned) did work on them. If they did, then that would be a decent choice.

*There's still something like 40,000 lying unused in armouries.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Taking all this into account, the organization could move to a very streamlined 5-platform (Glock 18, Steyr Aug in personal or LMG roles, a custom battle rifle, and the two shotguns), 5 ammo (three NATO standard -- 9mm, 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and shotgun loads 12G, and 10G), with the option to go down to 4 by dropping the big shotgun.

We also have to provide a Bulk -1 concealable carry option for academics, journalists and other field researchers with limited knowledge of firearms, who might nonetheless find themselves in a situation where it was better to have one. And sanitised drop-guns for what amount to murders, maybe a .22 LR (most common anywhere, hence least cause for suspicion).

I don't find any reasonable options in 9mm which would be available to the group. British police and armed services have fielded some concealable handguns, which by now might be available for discreet acquisition, but they've not been chambered in 9mm. The best possibilities have been chambered for .32 ACP for most of the semi-automatic options and in .380/200 for most of the revolver ones. .38 Spl revolvers exist, but were never issued in large numbers to any British organisation. There's also .455 Webley, for what it's worth.

And handgun production in the UK is even less promising. Basically, nothing much since WWII.

Does anyone know what were the most common handguns in the UK before the strict legislation hit? Pre-60s stuff, one would think. Some .22 LRs and a lot of revolvers. But what makers? What brands?

As regards your recommended longarms, I think it would be much harder to get M14s in Britain than it would be to get G3s* and L1A1 SLRs (FN FAL). I agree with the proposed modications, but you'd most probably start with either of those.

The Steyr AUG would probably be really hard to get. Is it really worth it to risk exposure by smuggling them into the UK, even if you could do the end-user certificates shuffle with them? Can't you get much the same flexibility by having in stock a seperate machine carbine in 9mm, short-barreled 5.56mm carbine and an EBR-ised 7.62mm rifle? True, you're left without an LMG, but the reality is that weapons that aren't purpose-built to be machine guns from ground-up tend to underperform in the field. They are more attractive on the printed page than anywhere else.

Most of the assault rifles that can be converted into LMGs have proved so disappointing in the latter role that the services which adopted them have been forced to add a dedicated SAW/LMG to their arsenal as well.

It might be worthwhile for the Rangers to construct their own shortened, folding-stock LMG from a surplus Bren or any other machine gun they can get their hands on. For times when things are so desperate that the risk of exposure is outweighed by the need to neutralise a threat that just doesn't respond to concealable weapons.

*Apparently made under licence there way back when, at least in limited numbers. Also adopted in limited numbers for special units.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Icelander

To what extent were smallarms from H&K built or assembled in the UK (for instance in the Nottingham facility) in the 90s (until 2002) while BAE owned Heckler & Koch?

I believe they made G36s there for export, and maybe other H&K models.

Since the late 80s, have any UK manufacturers made original or modified smallarms for special operations

Accuracy International produces most of its sniper rifles in the UK, although they aren't really what you are after.

It's possible to modify the Browning Hi-Power for full-auto functioning. ... I also wonder about a small folding foregrip and how much it would interfere with CCW. It would make the weapon much more controllable, to be sure. Maybe you could carry it seperately, snap it on a rail-mount before action?

The UK stock of Browning Hi-Powers predates standard accessory rails. It might be easier to design a direct attachment for a foregrip than to do it in two stages via an add-on rail.

The L85A2 would be different, but I just don't know if all of the modifications were done in Germany or if any UK factories owned by BAE or HK (then BAE-owned) did work on them. If they did, then that would be a decent choice.

I believe they were mostly modified in the Nottingham factory. This is from memory of contemporary news reports, which in the UK press are rather better on industry and finance than technical details of guns.

There's also .455 Webley, for what it's worth.

This might have some uses for the QPR. The guns are definitely TL6, but lasted well, and exotic hand-loads are easier to get to work well in a revolver than a semi-auto. It also has usefully more stopping power then .380/200, under GURPS. And it reloads quickly with a speed-loader. But it's bulky. The G:WWII campaign I play in kept using them until we could get Hi-Powers.

Does anyone know what were the most common handguns in the UK before the strict legislation hit? Pre-60s stuff, one would think.

Yes, and very assorted. Lots of Webley revolvers that were similar to service models, and cheaper knock-offs of them. Quite a few souvenir Lugers. All sorts of imports. Almost anything could turn up in a handgun amnesty, but much of it was cheap and nasty. During WWII, there was an appeal for handguns for war service, for supplying to resistance movements, which decreased the amount of good stuff in private hands by a hundred thousand or more.

It might be worthwhile for the Rangers to construct their own shortened, folding-stock LMG from a surplus Bren or any other machine gun they can get their hands on.

A lot of Brens were converted to 7.62 NATO and stayed in British Army service until the 1990s - Desert Storm was their last war.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I believe they made G36s there for export, and maybe other H&K models.

Ok. Do you know if it was G36E(/V), G36KE(/V) or G36C?

For what it's worth, almost all the weapons used by UK police services are G36K or G36C, usually (but not always) in SF, or semi-automatic only configuration.

At some point, MP5s were made under licence in the UK, according to HT and other sources. I haven't had any luck in discovering what models, though. Or by whom, for that matter, though I would guess at some connection with Royal Ordnance/BAE, probably through RSAF.

I know that the RSAF plant in Enfield made HK53A3s under licence, which could be interesting. When they closed the site in 1988 (moving production to Royal Ordnance plants, inc. Nottingham), it's not entirely impossible that they were left with some unsold stock that they'd be glad to get rid of in a 'legal' transaction with Sultan Qaboos or some of his fellow Gulf monarchs.

Originally Posted by johndallman

The UK stock of Browning Hi-Powers predates standard accessory rails. It might be easier to design a direct attachment for a foregrip than to do it in two stages via an add-on rail.

Oh, I know it doesn't have any accessory rails as is. I was thinking that if you were extensively modifying a Browning, complete with CNC-ing new components as needed and thus basically building a automatic pistol based on the L9A1, it could make sense to include accessory rails.

I'm picturing a slide-on attachment which combines a foregrip, tactical light and targeting laser. People with practical experience can tell me why that's a bad idea. I mean, I've seen such things, but it might be something which is only bought for TactiCool cred and works terribly in the real world.

Given that one of the problems with automatic pistols is that they are too light to be controllable, I thought it might be cool to add some weight to the foreend along with the grip. Might be easier to hide a normal size Browning and a foregrip/light in two pieces like that than an SMG of similar weight and with the same purpose.

Originally Posted by johndallman

I believe they were mostly modified in the Nottingham factory. This is from memory of contemporary news reports, which in the UK press are rather better on industry and finance than technical details of guns.

That might give them access to a choice of G36-based carbines, the HK53A3 or L85A2. The G36s would be the hardest to get, I'd think, seeing as they are in current use with police special teams and we don't know how much of them was built in the UK. And we still haven't narrowed down which model and I have no idea how easy it would be to modify the G36VSF into a G36K or G36C.

Obviously, a bullpup like the L85 can't use traditional folding or retractable stocks. Is there anything that could be done with the stock to make it easier to conceal during transport? Could one, with the resources discussed earlier in this thread (couple of CNC machines, a full gunsmithing workshop, two experienced armourers) design a stock that was at least partially retractable or could fold the rearward portion to the side? Sam? HANS? Anyone?

If getting them and modifying proves to be of roughly equivalent difficulty; which option sounds best out of these? HK53A3, G36C or G36K unmodified; or an entry version of the SA80 made with an L86A1 modified into a short carbine, like the L22A1 (ideally with some way to minimise the stock during transport)?

Originally Posted by johndallman

This might have some uses for the QPR. The guns are definitely TL6, but lasted well, and exotic hand-loads are easier to get to work well in a revolver than a semi-auto. It also has usefully more stopping power then .380/200, under GURPS. And it reloads quickly with a speed-loader. But it's bulky. The G:WWII campaign I play in kept using them until we could get Hi-Powers.

To some extent, the Bulk issue could be reduced with 'Fitzing', though I don't know whether there are some special pitfalls to consider when modifying Webleys in that way.

I was thinking that refurbished and/or painstakingly recreated classic Webleys and Enfields; all the way from the police models like the Webley RIC or M.P. Model, through the Colonial Service Webley-Green, Webley-Wilkingson and the Boer War model up to WWII vintage ones, could have been popular with the conspiracy during the pre-Ranger era.

They had an armoury back then, though not with the capability to produce on the same scale as when the Rangers became operational (which was added in 2005-2006) and they would have been interested in testing the possibilities in combining weapons and the paranormal. Supernatural-sensitive people and trained ritual magicians probably don't want to carry tools that are too modern and even people who don't use magic of their own might not want to interfere too much with it while researching. And I understand it's much easier to modify a revolver for concealed carry than it is to do the same to a semi-auto.

A Webley RIC or M.P. Model made from good steel could be a very decent sidearm for CCW. Do the designs have any flaws that it would be necessary to fix before issuing them? If so, would such fixes change the look of the gun greatly or be difficult to do?

I wonder what would be the best modern load for it? If you buy the brass somewhere and load your own, what would be the optimal self-defence round that fit the old design and what kind of stats would you get? If you wanted people with a single familiarisation course to be able to use it for short-range self-defence, that is?

A Boer-War vintage Webley Mk IV, which had perhaps had most of the wear-parts changed many times but was still metaphysically 'my grandfather's gun', might be a decent middle-ground between avoiding high-tech (to allow magic use) and still carrying a gun with some power. As long as you did it with hand tools and took care to have the end product look classic, I think you might get away with strengthening the weapon enough to handle high-power loads. At least 2d pi+, I'd hope. Is a hotter load possible without changing the weapon from its original appearance or making it unreliable in the field? Sam Cade? HANS? RogerBW? Anyone?

Originally Posted by johndallman

Yes, and very assorted. Lots of Webley revolvers that were similar to service models, and cheaper knock-offs of them. Quite a few souvenir Lugers. All sorts of imports. Almost anything could turn up in a handgun amnesty, but much of it was cheap and nasty. During WWII, there was an appeal for handguns for war service, for supplying to resistance movements, which decreased the amount of good stuff in private hands by a hundred thousand or more.

Apart from the .22 LR; what calibers do you reckon are the most common in your few street murders which involve firearms? I know that these are less than 20 a year* and thus not exactly a fit sample for a proper statistical analysis; but still, what kind of bullet would predispose investigators to think "druggies with an old street gun" and not wonder about a new gang with more powerful and modern weaponry?

*Meaning that in the UK, 2-3% of murders, at most, involve firearms.

Originally Posted by johndallman

A lot of Brens were converted to 7.62 NATO and stayed in British Army service until the 1990s - Desert Storm was their last war.

RSAF at Enfield and something called Manroy Engineering appear to have made a bunch of FN MAG GPMGs under licence.

Given a choice between a Bren chambered in 7.62x51mm and a FN MAG in the same caliber, which would posters choose as the basis for a cut-down 'Para' machine gun, with short barrel and folding stock?