Labs (Laboratories) in UT & HT vs. Labs in Spaceships. What gives?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

As a participant in all the playtests in question I can tell you that the subject did not come up as best as I can remember. The numbers might well be the same as in 3e.

"Lab" is an abstraction anyway. I'm sure HT is pretty good about specific items of equipment but a generic "lab" that covers an entrie field and is conicidentally the same cost and weight as all the equipment you need for a completely different science specialization seems like an obvious and arbitrary simplification of complex realities.

If nothign else you might notice that the HT/UT "labs" don't include buildings to keep the equipment in much less power and life support for the users.

Well, yes, it is an abstraction, but it's an abstraction that permeates the rest of the gaming activity.
'I need to fix a paper shredder. Now, I have an Electronics Repair toolkit in my inventory, but I wonder if it includes a screwdriver type #6 that matches one of its screws.'
'I am using a Silver Crescent type of punch, so he will get a +1 to Parry if he decides to defend with a Swampy Woodland arm parry, but -1 if he tries the Shaky Bamboo parry against it.'

These things are mostly abstracted by necessity, as a GM and player can not be expected to be proficient in the intricacies of all the skills out there. Or else there goes death to roleplaying and life to playing oneself only. Usually, when a player wants to perform a chemistry task, the GM has to answer what does the PC need in terms of tools.
The problem is that the tools in SS and UT/HT are the same, but with wildly different prices and masses.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The problem is that the tools in SS and UT/HT are the same, but with wildly different prices and masses.

Maybe the "tools" are the same, but I think a UT/HT vs. Spaceships lab are quite different in scope. E.g. A man-portable lab may be as good as the spaceship's lab as far as collecting and analyzing a sample of an infected colonist's blood. But once the contagion is discovered, you're going to want to use the spaceship's lab to find and mass produced a cure. You might be able to do both of these with a the man-portable lab, but it would take much longer.

Of course, this does not address why a full room-sized lab from UT/HT differs in any way from the same room-sized lab in Spaceships. The only thing I can offer is that the UT/HT lab does not include the costs for the fairly regular replacement of consumables, and Spaceships lab does.

I'm being a GURPS apologist here. I have no real insider knowledge into why the prices and masses are different. My guess would be the games effects of price and mass for labs was arrived at independently in all cases, without consulting the other books. Different assumptions resulted in different results. What these assumptions are, and how they arrived at the stats given, only the authors can tell us for sure.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The problem is that the tools in SS and UT/HT are the same, but with wildly different prices and masses.

I think that there is an unspoken assumption that Suitcase, Field and Semi-Portable labs are only good for the sort of work you'd do in the field and would be inadequate for many longer and more complex tasks. For one thing, they include no (or at best limited) storage facilities for samples and probably have a very limited supply of any perishables needed.

Then there's the fact that the portable labs require housing, for some kinds of work very specific and expensive housing. Add to that power requirements.

I won't pretend that once this is all accounted for, the prices will match exactly, but as a GM, I'd react to a suggestion that Labs on a research ship will consist of Suitcase labs stored in personal quarters by reminding the player that this would mean that there were a lot of tasks that he simply could not do with his tools unless he had a real Lab module.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Well, yes, it is an abstraction, but it's an abstraction that permeates the rest of the gaming activity.

It hasn't permeated my gaming activity. In fact it's never come up at all.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It hasn't permeated my gaming activity. In fact it's never come up at all.

On the contrary, people regularly use abstract toolkits and other stuff in RPGs, install abstract programs on abstract computers with no regard for compatibility between architecture/OS and the program (which is not a given), etc. and nobody notices. It's just the way things are.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

On the contrary, people regularly use abstract toolkits and other stuff in RPGs, install abstract programs on abstract computers with no regard for compatibility between architecture/OS and the program (which is not a given), etc. and nobody notices. It's just the way things are.

I'm not sure how you can present a contrary to my personal experience that any discrepancy in the labs in HT/UT and SS has never come up.

That specific issue or any thing much like it really hasn't come up in my personal gaming experience.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I'm not sure how you can present a contrary to my personal experience that any discrepancy in the labs in HT/UT and SS has never come up.

That specific issue or any thing much like it really hasn't come up in my personal gaming experience.

Hmmm. It seems there's been a misunderstanding. Somehow I parsed that as abstractions never coming up, so countered that in most cases, issues of compatibility, tools fitting the task etc. are simplified/abstracted.

Anyway, the price discrepancy sort of came up when I designed a base using the expanded Pyramid rules, and its 3 or 5 labs accounted for 20% of its total cost. It was weird in that those rooms cost so much compared to the hangars, power plant and other stuff.

[Lamech]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Hmmm. It seems there's been a misunderstanding. Somehow I parsed that as abstractions never coming up, so countered that in most cases, issues of compatibility, tools fitting the task etc. are simplified/abstracted.

Anyway, the price discrepancy sort of came up when I designed a base using the expanded Pyramid rules, and its 3 or 5 labs accounted for 20% of its total cost. It was weird in that those rooms cost so much compared to the hangars, power plant and other stuff.

Hey which pyramid was this in?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Lamech

Hey which pyramid was this in?

Pyramid 3-34: Alternate GURPS.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Anyway, the price discrepancy sort of came up when I designed a base using the expanded Pyramid rules, and its 3 or 5 labs accounted for 20% of its total cost. It was weird in that those rooms cost so much compared to the hangars, power plant and other stuff.

I don't find it particularly shocking that laboratories where you can safely examine alien microbes demand a level of care in construction and engineering that is far beyond the standard required for hangars or engine rooms.

Other rooms just don't require the same safety protocols, with multiple layers of airlocks and suchlike.