[DF] Talents for the Standard Templates

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Kromm

So far, the best fix mentioned would be to schlep spells off onto a new attribute, which starts at 10 and can't be reduced for points....

Or just base all spells off of 10+magery, and multiply existing magery requirements by 2 (otherwise any mage worth her salt will meet all magery requirements.)

I'd consider combining it with required magery specializations/styles, myself. Said style talents could be broader than just (foo) magic as well. A lot of overhead, admittedly.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by martinl

multiply existing magery requirements by 2

. . . or ditch them. They're not terribly meaningful anyway. All the way back to GURPS First Edition, using GURPS Fantasy with the demon on the cover and spells inside, every PC wizard ever always took Magery 3 and could learn all of the spells. With the advent of limitations on Magery, things got even easier, as it was cheaper to have Magery 3 in your pet college.

Originally Posted by martinl

I'd consider combining it with required magery specializations/styles, myself. Said style talents could be broader than just (foo) magic as well. A lot of overhead, admittedly.

The overhead would be brutal, and would inject a lot of complex detail into a series (Dungeon Fantasy) that was authorized specifically to simplify GURPS. I honestly think that it would be far, far simpler to leave the magic rules alone and come up with a more streamlined set of spells that (1) leaves out spells that destroy dungeon crawls, (2) more cleanly severs sacred (clerical, druidic, shamanic, etc.) spells from wizardly ones, so that wizards need no sacred spells as prerequisites for anything, and (3) rethinks prerequisites for wizardly spells, possibly introducing Magery levels up to 6 and reducing spell counts, to make wizardly magic more like theurgy with regards to how spell power tracks advantage levels. That would be complex work for the person doing it, but the end product would be far easier for GMs and players alike to use in play. Whereas lots of styles, Talents, etc. would add complexity for end users, too.

[b-dog]

If some wrote new magic rules for wizards (including necromancers, elementalists and demonologists because they have Magery) then other players would not feel they have an unfair advantage. But they may be unhappy with clerics, druis and mentalists because they would have powers and spells based on IQ so they would know everything and also have supernatural powers.

[jspade]

I can say I've never seen a PC with less than Magery 3 in my 20+ years playing GURPS. I've also never has a GURPS campaign in which some but not all of the player characters were able to use the standard magic system survive for long. It's simply too good at niche-stomping, which is very taboo in our group. Forget "GURPS has hard math", "GURPS won't protect niches" is the biggest criticism in our group.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

. . . or ditch them. They're not terribly meaningful anyway. All the way back to GURPS First Edition, using GURPS Fantasy with the demon on the cover and spells inside, every PC wizard ever always took Magery 3 and could learn all of the spells.

You ran into the very rare elf or something who had magery 1, but you were heavily incentivized to get skill 15, and IQ 14/magery 3 was the cheapest way to do that.

Originally Posted by Kromm

I honestly think that it would be far, far simpler to leave the magic rules alone and come up with a more streamlined set of spells..

Or just come up with a totally new magic system.

[RobKamm]

I've played characters with less than Magery 3 on two occasions. Both characters were experts in other fields (a ranger-type and a face character) who used magic as an adjunct. The latter character went several sessions before any realized that he was a mage at all. That said, when doing magic focused characters the Magery 3, IQ 14+ build is the only way to go.

[simply Nathan]

I understand that Magery 3 IQ 14 is an optimal way to build a mage, but my only mage PC had Magery 3 and IQ 11. What kind of point total does it become viable to take 115 points in IQ and Magery at? Seems that it'd leave you awfully strapped for points with which to buy other necessities like HT, FP/ER, everyman skills, and actual spells.

[Dammann]

That really depends on your disadvantage limit. If you have those 115 points spent, and you factor in -75 points for disadvantages and quirks, you are only down 40 points from your budget. That means that your wizard is constrained in terms of standout attributes aside from IQ, but you can probably afford a modest starting grimoire, everyman skills, and some extra FP as well. On a 100 point budget, 10 points toward everyman, 15 toward extra FP, and 30 points in spells leaves you 5 more points for other advantages. That is a pretty competent character on a smallish budget.

[PK]

(Quote trimmed heavily.)

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

Regarding the Martial Artist's Chi Talent, I don't think it's as good a deal as it's being put forward here.

For one thing, the starting Martial Artist only gets seven chi skills to start with, and each one only has two points spent on it. You could put two more points into each of those and get the same thing for about the same cost (fourteen versus fifteen points).

Also, the skills themselves aren't each equally useful.

So, while it is significantly less costly to purchase Chi Mastery than to get an equivalent increase in skill levels to those skills from some other means, it's not as effective as it could be if you only want six or fewer or twelve or fewer of those skills. Compare it to Ninja Talent, or the Strong Chi talent from Power-Ups 3. The Martial Artist doesn't have an option for raising a small number of skills like that. It's all or nothing, but I don't think anyone values all seventeen of those Chi skills equally.

I have to admit, you make a good point. When I was doing my Deadlands-to-GURPS/4e conversion, I original stole Chi Mastery wholesale as the Talent for cinematic martial artists. But I admit I didn't really enjoy how they were coming together. So I stole a little inspiration* from Bill Stoddard's upcoming GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers and came up with five cheap Talents instead of one expensive one -- and I must admit, it's been a big improvement.

So, that lesson learned, here's how I'd suggest doing the same for Dungeon Fantasy, with a few tweaks for balance:

You have access to the following Talents; each costs 5 points/level. The reaction bonuses (from other martial artists) do not stack; use that of your highest Talent. If you have Chi abilities, you get a bonus equal to (your total levels of Chi Talents)/3, rounded normally, to use them. Skills with a * appear in Martial Arts (pp. 61‑62).

• Chi of Earth: Body Control, Breath Control, Esoteric Medicine, Kiai, Pressure Points, Pressure Secrets.
• Chi of Fire: Autohypnosis, Flying Leap, Jumping, Meditation, Power Blow, Zen Archery.
• Chi of Metal: Breaking Blow, Immovable Stance, Mental Strength, Mind Block, Parry Missile Weapons, Precognitive Parry*.
• Chi of Water: Blind Fighting, Hypnotic Hands*, Hypnotism, Invisibility Art, Push, Sensitivity*.
• Chi of Wood: Acrobatics, Climbing, Light Walk, Lizard Climb*, Stealth, Throwing Art.

* Note I said "inspiration," not "drawn directly from." In fact, Bill's lists are notably different from mine, because I admit I focused more on grouping prerequisites together for convenient character building while he focused on the actual meanings of the elements. That said, I was glad to have his list to use as my jumping-off point!

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by PK

So I . . . came up with five cheap Talents instead of one expensive one -- and I must admit, it's been a big improvement.

Those are very nice. I like how you actually get to differentiate your character. That's something all of the other skill-based characters get to do. Wizards and bards have prerequisites that require them to make tradeoffs on what spells they can get. Clerics and druids have a number of different deities to choose from.

With those talents, there's the possibility to see different martial artists have different skill levels. There are actual tradeoffs to consider. You incidentally get some of those less-than-useful skills at higher levels, which makes them interesting options rather than incredible point sinks.