[MA] Southern Kung Fu, the Common Folk and Tong Hatchetmen

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by aesir23

On thing I think you should consider is that Chinese martial arts before the 19th century probably focused on weapons much more than the modern ones.

Just so. Another way to phrase my question would have been 'what would armed versions of Chinese martial art styles look like'? It's easy enough to figure out that I should add various weapons to the list of skills, but it's more difficult to figure out what effects this ought to have on typical combat tactics and list of techiques for the modified style.

Originally Posted by aesir23

So a proto-wing chun may actually have more in common with Shortsword Fighting than with Wing Chun.

Possibly. On the other hand, Shortsword Fighting is a very distinct way of using a sword and Wing Chun appears to be another way. Ideally, I'd like using weapons with various styles to feel as different as many unarmed styles already do.

Examples are such signature tactics as Hung Gar Aggressive Parry* + Counterattack and Wing Chun 'chain punches'. How do I best model armed versions of them? Or do they only apply when unarmed, with weapons forcing a change in prefered tactics?

*I wish some armed version of this existed. I know that armed Parries against unarmed attacks are Aggressive by default, but surely there is a continuum of more and less commitment to meeting force with force when holding a weapon. Also, it ought to be possible to meet armed attacks with an armed Aggressive Parry, either to wound the hand or arm of an attacker with a short weapon or to knock a longer weapon out of line. So far, however, I haven't come up with a good design of a Technique for it.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Possibly. On the other hand, Shortsword Fighting is a very distinct way of using a sword and Wing Chun appears to be another way. Ideally, I'd like using weapons with various styles to feel as different as many unarmed styles already do.

Good point. I've actually tried to do something similar for Hsing-I, which is allegedly based on spear fighting techniques originally. But Hsing-I's not Southern so that's not helpful. Here's a take on a proto-Wing Chun with Hatchet fighting added on for good measure.

Proto-Wing Chun 3
The swords used in Wing Chun are short, even for shortswords. They are always supposed to be shorter than the fighter's forearm so that the blades can be rotated 360 degrees with bent arms.
Practitioners always train with two swords, so they may take the Off-Hand Weapon Training as soon as they have Style Familiarity, ignoring the usual requirements for Style Perks. However, this also means that Proto-Wing Chun lacks the grappling techniques of its modern descendent.
The style is designed to be effective in close quarters, such as on board a ship on in narrow alleyways. The style is fairly defensive with a focus on beats and counterattacks.
An typical tactic would be to wait until a successful parry and then counter attack with a flurry of Defensive Attacks launched as Rapid Strikes.
This style can be used with suitably light and short hatchets, as has become quite popular in some gangs. This is best reflected by taking Weapon Adaptation (Hatchet with Shortsword) (since the quick defensive style of Wing Chun is ill suited for most other Axe/Mace weapons).

Skills: Karate, Shortsword
Techniques: Close Combat (Karate or Shortsword), Counterattack (Karate or Shortsword), Feint (Shortsword), Stamp Kick, Targeted Attack (Karate Kick to Leg), Targeted Attack (Shortsword Swing/Face)
Cinematic Skills:Blind Fighting, Immovable Stance, Mental Strength, Power Blow, Sensitivity.
Cinematic Techniques: Dual Weapon Attack (Shortswords), Dual Weapon Defense (Shortswords), Timed Defense (Shortswords).
Perks: Naval Training, Off-Hand Weapon Training (Shortsword), Unusual Training (Dual Weapon Attack, both must have same target), Weapon Adaptation (Hatchets use Shortsword).

Optional Skills: Axe/Mace, Fast Draw (Sword), Judo, Knife, Seamanship, Staff, Streetwise, Wrestling.

[EDIT] I totally agree with you about the need for an armed version of aggressive parry.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Good point. I've actually tried to do something similar for Hsing-I, which is allegedly based on spear fighting techniques originally. But Hsing-I's not Southern so that's not helpful.

Actually, I could probably use any style that's primarily intended for 'common people', particularly those involved in urban criminal activities. I merely focused on Southern styles because they are more usually perceived as such than the Northern ones. But I could probably do something with anything not primarily designed for monks or noble warriors.

Granted, a lot of that can be done by adding a 'Street' lens to styles, Northern or Southern. But that doesn't give me enough detail about the armed tactics and techniques of styles that are presented in MA as more-or-less their modern versions, i.e. unarmed styles that include weapons mostly as add-ons.

Originally Posted by aesir23

Here's a take on a proto-Wing Chun with Hatchet fighting added on for good measure.

I like it. On the other hand, I'm not sure that cutting the grappling elements out makes sense. Surely there were times where it was easier to conceal a single weapon than two, there were no weapons at all available and/or the fighter was attacking from ambush and thus didn't need a parrying weapon. Generally, street-ready styles include some grappling elements, frequently Wrestling.

And I'd have Knives as a primary skill too.

[Icelander]

I'd find it plausible to find Knife and Shortsword skills as primary skills alongside unarmed techniques in a lot of the rough-and-ready urban styles that predated the modern versions. I could add Axe/Mace too, but I might prefer to present that training as an add-on Style, which could be picked up by advanced students of many other styles with Style Adaptation or just a new Style Familiarity.

The following 'Double Hatchet' style is meant to work with the majority of Southern styles, but it might be evident that most of the video I could examine was Choy Li Fut, as the modern practisioners that most often train with the hatchet are generally CLF stylists (or Wushu, but for obvious reasons, I don't want to base criminal/street/self-defence styles on that).

(Li Kwei) Shuang Fu

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________2 points

Shuang Fu ('Double Axe') teaches the use of the Chinese fighting axe. It is not a complete martial art in itself, but is rather a body of armed techniques that are usually taught alongside another style, often a Southern Chinese one such as Choy Gar, Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar, Wing Chun or the various styles sometimes refered to as Hakka Kuen (Nam Pai Tong Long, Bak Me Pai, Long Ying Mo Kiu, etc.). Generally, the philosophy and stances of the style it is supplementing will be retained as much as possible, simply incorporating the armed moves below as additional options. The weapons are usually of Hatchet-length and weight, but larger examples that count as Small Axes are not unknown. Some few stylists prefer weapons that use Axe stats, except that the handle is generally not long enough to allow unpenalised two-handed use. These are rarely practical for self-defence carry and mostly see use when stylists are forced to use their art on the battlefield.

Stylists always train with two axes, one usually being held forward to block attacks (Parry) and the other used for attacks. As a result, they may take Off-Hand Weapon Training (Axe/Mace) as soon as they have Style Familiarity or Style Adaptation, ignoring the usual requirements for Style Perks. Despite this, true Dual-Weapon Attacks are rare among stylists, as that would give up all their defences. Generally, stylists only attack with one of their weapons per turn, reserving the other for defensive use.

Attack is the most common offensive manuver, but probing Defensive Attacks with the blocking axe are also favoured. Openings, whether spotted or created, are often exploited by a Committed Attack. Probing attacks may be aimed at arms or hands, but full-power strikes are meant to be decisive and generally aimed at a substantial or high-value target, such as the torso, neck, head, skull or veins/arteries.

One common tactic is follow up a Parry by using the parrying axe to knock or pull the opponent's weapon out of line and then striking a decisive blow with the other axe. This can be represented as a simple Counterattack, but it can also be a Hook or a Beat with the blocking axe followed by the strike with the other one, often launched as a Committed Attack. Advanced stylists may do this as a Rapid Strike or Dual-Weapon Attack. It can also be bought as a Combination or Trademark Move.

The tactical philosophy of the style learnt alongside this will also influence choice of manuevers and targets. The axes lend themselves well to grappling techniques and many stylists use Armed Grapple to get into Close Combat and then make use of trapping techniques and locks from their unarmed curriculum.

Cinematic stylists tend to be very strong and very tough. Throwing their weapons, or anything else they may lay their hands on, is a crowd-pleasing favourite. As is a spinning dervish dance of chopping mayhem, the classic Whirlwind Attack.

Skills: Axe/Mace.
Techniques: Arm Lock (Axe/Mace); Armed Aggressive Parry* (Axe/Mace); Armed Grapple (Axe/Mace); Beat (Axe/Mace); Close Combat (Axe/Mace); Counterattack (Axe/Mace); Feint (Axe/Mace); Hook (Axe/Mace); Retain Weapon (Axe/Mace); Spinning Attack (Axe/Mace); Targeted Attack (Axe/Mace Swing/Leg Veins/Arteries); Targeted Attack (Axe/Mace Swing/Face); Targeted Attack (Axe/Mace Swing/Neck); Targeted Attack (Axe/Mace Swing/Skull).
Combinations: Axe/Mace Beat + Axe/Mace Swing/(Face, Neck or Skull); Hook + Axe/Mace Swing/(Face, Neck or Skull).
Cinematic Skills: Blind-Fighting, Immovable Stance; Power Blow; Throwing Art.
Cinematic Techniques: Dual Weapon Attack (Axe/Mace); Dual Weapon Defence (Axe/Mace); Springing Attack (Axe/Mace); Whirlwind Attack (Axe/Mace).
Perks: Improvised Weapons (Axe/Mace); Mobile Parry (Axe/Mace); Off-Hand Weapon Training (Axe/Mace); Special Exercises (+1 Striking ST); Special Set-Up (Axe/Mace Parry > Arm Lock); Style Adaptation (Any CMA); Unusual Training (Fast-Draw allowed for Hatchets); Unusual Training (Dual-Weapon Attack; only to combine Beat and attack); Weapon Control (Small Axe)

Optional Traits

Attributes:High ST and HT.
Secondary Characteristics: Increased HP and FP.
Advantages: Ambidexterity; Combat Reflexes; Enhanced Parry (Axe/Mace); Fit or Very Fit; Striking ST.
Disadvantages: Bad Temper; Code of Honour (Organisation); Compulsive Carousing, Dependent (Mother); Sense of Duty (Family or Organisation); Social Stigma (Criminal).
Skills: Brawling; Fast-Draw (Hatchet); Holdout; Karate; Knife; Savoir-Faire (Organisation); Shortsword; Streetwise; Tactics; Thrown Weapon (Axe/Mace); Wrestling.
Techniques: Reverse Grip (Axe/Mace); Underhand Grip Defence (Axe/Mace); Underhand Slash (Axe/Mace).
Perks: Extra Option (Fast-Draw (Hatchet) can be used for all one-handed Axe/Mace weapons with which the user is familiar); Weapon Control (Axe).

*See next page of this thread.

[Kalzazz]

Kromm somewhere (let me find it) okayed Fast Draw for Hatchets

They might learn that

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Kromm somewhere (let me find it) okayed Fast Draw for Hatchets

They might learn that

My hatchet-fighting pirates thank you.*

*Funnily enough, three leading NPC party members of the PCs' adventuring party have used hatchets and small axes as their ranged weapons for years. And only one of them is a Dwarf. I've allowed them to use Fast-Draw, but I wasn't sure how legal that was.

[Kalzazz]

As promised!

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=28

I am very interested in aggressive parry for weapons

While I was in college I studied what the guy claimed was 'English Broadsword', which may or may not have had anything to do with the English or Broadswords

The main tactic in this consisted of launching hearty full driving range swings from side to side, and the basic parry taught was the same as the basic attack, you just attempt to attack through the area the other guys weapon happened to be coming from

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I am very interested in aggressive parry for weapons

While I was in college I studied what the guy claimed was 'English Broadsword', which may or may not have had anything to do with the English or Broadswords

The main tactic in this consisted of launching hearty full driving range swings from side to side, and the basic parry taught was the same as the basic attack, you just attempt to attack through the area the other guys weapon happened to be coming from

The main limiting factor on writing a Technique like that is that I still haven't completely worked out a good way to word (and accomodate edge cases) my house rules on Striking At Weapons.

It occurs to me that for people who don't mind that Striking At Weapons doesn't actually do very much, I could whip up a version in an hour or so. Depending on the breaks.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Icelander

*I wish some armed version of this existed. I know that armed Parries against unarmed attacks are Aggressive by default, but surely there is a continuum of more and less commitment to meeting force with force when holding a weapon. Also, it ought to be possible to meet armed attacks with an armed Aggressive Parry, either to wound the hand or arm of an attacker with a short weapon or to knock a longer weapon out of line. So far, however, I haven't come up with a good design of a Technique for it.

I asked this question myself a while back. My tentative houserule on the subject is that, firstly, weapons don't automatically inflict full damage on Parrying an unarmed attack; 1/2 damage (or even 1/2 thrust damage) is more appropriate. To improve this requires the Aggressive Parry technique, which may be usable against unarmed or (at a penalty) armed attacks, inflicting a higher proportion of weapon damage.

Your technique looks like a fine solution. I like that you included a "disarm" function as well.