[LT] Leather (& Textile) weight issues and Scaling to size.

[DanHoward]

The above list is resistance against points, which is all that really mattered historically. The most common threat in any battle by a long margin was from spears and arrows.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

The above list is resistance against points, which is all that really mattered historically. The most common threat in any battle by a long margin was from spears and arrows.

PCs would still be pretty dumb to not keep at least one blunt weapon for all those mail wearers. The handicap is too severe for it not to have been commonly known.

[Anthony]

The problem with scaling weight to HP (or ST) is that it significantly (and unrealistically) encourages small characters. If you want, though, a standard estimate of human surface area is sqrt (weight * height / 3600 ), where weight is in kg, height is in cm, and area is in m^2 (yeah, that's some horrible unit confusion there). That works out to 2/3 * sqrt(W*H) if we want square feet, pounds, and feet. Thus, for a 6'/180 lb man (183cm/81kg) we get or 21.9 sf or 2.03m^2.

Other than that, I'd probably give a limitation on ST, or a flat disadvantage, for unusually heavy gear. One option is fractional SM; each .1 SM increases the weight of armor by 10%, but has none of the other effects of SM, and provides a 1% limitation on ST.

[jacobmuller]

Originally Posted by Anthony

a standard estimate of human surface area is sqrt (weight * height / 3600 ), where weight is in kg, height is in cm, and area is in m^2 (yeah, that's some horrible unit confusion there). That works out to 2/3 * sqrt(W*H) if we want square feet, pounds, and feet. Thus, for a 6'/180 lb man (183cm/81kg) we get or 21.9 sf or 2.03m^2.

I endeavour to acknowledge the wisdom of KISS and for a similar query was pointed to Basic Lift as a racial mean.

(one of the reasons I love GURPS is my occasional OCD trips where I spend hours figuring out the precise numbers for something and then realise GURPS had it covered with 3d and a mod).

[Trachmyr]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem with scaling weight to HP (or ST) is that it significantly (and unrealistically) encourages small characters. If you want, though, a standard estimate of human surface area is sqrt (weight * height / 3600 ), where weight is in kg, height is in cm, and area is in m^2 (yeah, that's some horrible unit confusion there). That works out to 2/3 * sqrt(W*H) if we want square feet, pounds, and feet. Thus, for a 6'/180 lb man (183cm/81kg) we get or 21.9 sf or 2.03m^2.

Thanks for the formula, I've seen a few on the web, but haven't converted/simplified them yet.

While heavier/lighter armor may give one benefit to smaller characters, I think that if the increase is kept linear* rather than exponential, it should be ok... and besides, bigger characters do need heavier armor. But going to a linear increase means that larger characters will still be able to carry more in relationship to samller characters.

* The reason I'm going with a linear increase is that the Height/Weight chart seems to suggest a square increase to weight based on ST rather than cubed for individuals of the same race, representing increased efficiency as well as mass. Thus surface area would be linear rather than square based.

Other than that, I'd probably give a limitation on ST, or a flat disadvantage, for unusually heavy gear. One option is fractional SM; each .1 SM increases the weight of armor by 10%, but has none of the other effects of SM, and provides a 1% limitation on ST.

See, I'm of a slightly different mindset in that I feel HP is underpriced, but by using it to represent mass, it is balanced again. I'd go the route of allowing a 50% enhancement of extra HP for Massless.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I wouldn't tie surface area rigidly to ST, because ST can easily vary 30% from that predicted by bodyweight.

I tie it to HP, and while the ratio of mass to surface area can vary, it's the best stat to measure it by. I'm all for a perk or quirk to vary mass by 1 step greater/lesser than HP indicates. I also would place greater restictions on lowering HP, so that it can't be more than 15% lower than ST.

Keep in mind that GURPS DR is very coarse ... 13-15 oz leather might provide DR 1.5 but the rules have to reflect the empirical reality that layered or quilted linen provides more protection per kilo than most leathers.

Generally 13/15 oz. leather is considered Armor-Grade, and should be DR2, 16/18 oz was extremely heavy and occassionally used in Buff Coats designed to stop sword swings of lighter blades (DR2 +1 vs. Cut, use Edge-Protection rules), in comparison, thick shoe leather for soles is also 13/15 ounce.

The rule modifications I suggest do not alter the relationship of Leather to other Armors, including Textiles. It makes a reduction across the board then modifies for size, making the Base Table assume HP 12. The rules for Tailoring is really where I try to get Leather and Textiles back realistic numbers, by making Tailoring cheaper for those materials. But, layered & quilted linen will remain superior to Leather.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

Generally 13/15 oz. leather is considered Armor-Grade, and should be DR2, 16/18 oz was extremely heavy and occassionally used in Buff Coats designed to stop sword swings of lighter blades (DR2 +1 vs. Cut, use Edge-Protection rules), in comparison, thick shoe leather for soles is also 13/15 ounce.

SCA "armour-grade" doesn't count.
Leather shrinks a lot when subjected to hardening treatments.
Anything can stop a sword cut. Proper armour will stop a point. Leather has a lot of trouble doing this unless it is layered.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

Generally 13/15 oz. leather is considered Armor-Grade, and should be DR2, 16/18 oz was extremely heavy and occassionally used in Buff Coats designed to stop sword swings of lighter blades (DR2 +1 vs. Cut, use Edge-Protection rules), in comparison, thick shoe leather for soles is also 13/15 ounce.

Considered by whom?

[Henchman99942]

Has anyone worked on using these for other Leather (& Textile) equipment?

Examples: backpacks, bags, pouches, etc...?

How about having higher tech versions of items that first came about in lower tech incarnations?

A tech 7 backpack should weigh less and carry more than a tech 1 backpack.

Is the best solution to use advanced materials as a modifier?

*********

(Additional questions have been resolved)

[Polydamas]

I wouldn't tie surface area rigidly to ST, because ST can easily vary 30% from that predicted by bodyweight. Keep in mind that GURPS DR is very coarse ... 13-15 oz leather might provide DR 1.5 but the rules have to reflect the empirical reality that layered or quilted linen provides more protection per kilo than most leathers.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

PCs would still be pretty dumb to not keep at least one blunt weapon for all those mail wearers. The handicap is too severe for it not to have been commonly known.

The trouble is that in many cases, a spear or bow was still a better weapon. Most opponents will have plenty of targets with no armour, you have to get very close to hit someone with a mace held in your hand, and you have to want to kill or maim them. Sidearms like swords, axes, and maces were normally backup weapons.

Dan's comments about the most common threat aren't a bad approximation for societies with iron. Lots of societies without iron relied heavily on clubs and slings.

[Flyndaran]

It still seems like being an armored giant with one huge big unblinking eye and getting suprised when someone throws things at that one huge target.