Totemic or Group advantages

[Mailanka]

There's a concept I've been tinkering with that I wished to lay before the hivemind, to be analyzed by your millions of eyes and your clicking, hungry mandibles.

Some RPGs include "group" traits. The group of players either pool points, or are simply allotted a certain number of "group" points they may use to buy advantages "together." A classic example of this is the Totem from Werewolf: With a combination of all points spent on the totem, the players, together, can buy traits that the totem offers everyone.

This can be a problematic concept (Jimmy spends 5 of his 7 background points on Totem, and Tommy spends 0, but Tommy benefits as much from the Totem as Jimmy does) if done poorly, but I think the idea is a sound one. It tends to bind the group together and gives them character.

I pondered something similar regarding starships. In many cases, as a friend of mine pointed out, a starship is little more than scenery, an excuse to get you from point A to point B, but is otherwise "just home." I disagreed, though, because "home" can't find orbital blasts, scan things from orbit, or house medical bays, factories, hangars filled with tanks, and keep loads and loads of your stuff. Spaceships also become something of a "group" advantage, and I've been pondering ways to give ships traits and tricks more interesting than just the stats you can buy out of GURPS Spaceships.

Do we already have material or suggestions for group-advantages? If not, do you guys have any suggestions? Would you simply treat it as a Patron that everyone takes individually who simply grants unique abilities that the GM agrees to? Is there a more detailed system that I don't know about? Or suggestions any of you have?

[thulben]

I personally wouldn't have a problem with player A spending points on a trait that player B doesn't but benefits by virtue of being in the same group. I see it as no different than splitting loot. As long as the total benefit is the same, it shouldn't matter. But maybe I'm missing something.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by thulben

I personally wouldn't have a problem with player A spending points on a trait that player B doesn't but benefits by virtue of being in the same group. I see it as no different than splitting loot. As long as the total benefit is the same, it shouldn't matter. But maybe I'm missing something.

It depends on the group and the scale of the advantages in question. Purchasing a starship outright, for example, can require the players to collectively have several levels of multi-millionaire. If you're playing a 200 point space opera game, and one player paid 100 points just to buy the ship and all the other players get to keep their full 200 points and still benefit from the ship, then our 100 point captain can feel a bit cheated. That's a fairly extreme example, and it's often defeated by the Wil Wheaton "Don't be a jerk!" rule, but that's why I said it "can" be problematic. It doesn't have to be.

Regardless, it's not really the focus. I'm just curious if people know of any resources for these sorts of advantages in GURPS, or if they have experience doing something similar.

[trooper6]

GURPS Conspiracy X has rules for group secret bases and resources.

When I ran GURPS Traveller: ISW, I had the ship majority owned by the NPC Captain, but opened up shares for the PCs to buy. Each share was a cp. Shares resulted in a percent of the profits. So if you didn't spend any cp on the ship, all you got was your basic pay, if you spent cp on the ship, you got your basic pay, and extra profit. Additionally, only people who were shareholders could be in the chain of leadership command. So, in that PC group, every one but one PC decided to invest in their ship. That PC thought he was getting away with something...but after a few sessions, that PC was trying to get shares in the ship as well.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

It depends on the group and the scale of the advantages in question. Purchasing a starship outright, for example, can require the players to collectively have several levels of multi-millionaire.

I don't like most concepts for buying a starship with points. Generally, either a game is about traveling in a starship (it seems odd to write "Campaign happens [100]" on a character sheet), or it isn't (it seems equally odd to write "Can leave campaign [100]").

[copeab]

Originally Posted by RyanW

I don't like most concepts for buying a starship with points. Generally, either a game is about traveling in a starship (it seems odd to write "Campaign happens [100]" on a character sheet), or it isn't (it seems equally odd to write "Can leave campaign [100]").

I wouldn,t charge points for a group vehicle, either. If the group needs a vehicle, I'll give them one, If thry don't need one. well. the PCs can steal one ;)

[copeab]

Originally Posted by thulben

I personally wouldn't have a problem with player A spending points on a trait that player B doesn't but benefits by virtue of being in the same group. I see it as no different than splitting loot. As long as the total benefit is the same, it shouldn't matter. But maybe I'm missing something.

Many abilities are, in effect, group abilities in that while only one PC can use it, the rest of the party benefits (for example. Danger Sense).

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by RyanW

I don't like most concepts for buying a starship with points. Generally, either a game is about traveling in a starship (it seems odd to write "Campaign happens [100]" on a character sheet), or it isn't (it seems equally odd to write "Can leave campaign [100]").

This is a good point, but there are a lot of variations to consider:

For example: Game is about traveling around the galaxy--you can either pay money for passage on commercial ships, or have your own ship which doubles as a home-base and headquarters, but it will cost you points.

But yes, most of the time it makes sense to grant group advantages for free.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by RyanW

I don't like most concepts for buying a starship with points. Generally, either a game is about traveling in a starship (it seems odd to write "Campaign happens [100]" on a character sheet), or it isn't (it seems equally odd to write "Can leave campaign [100]").

Originally Posted by aesir23

This is a good point, but there are a lot of variations to consider:

For example: Game is about traveling around the galaxy--you can either pay money for passage on commercial ships, or have your own ship which doubles as a home-base and headquarters, but it will cost you points.

But yes, most of the time it makes sense to grant group advantages for free.

Right, and herein lies the problem:

Let's say we give the players a ship for free. What sort of ship? Is that up to me, or up to them? Do the players get any kind of say in what the ship is like? If a scout ship is standard but they want a destroyer, what's the upgrade cost?

Ships provide a lot more than transportation. They're weapon platforms, powerful sensing devices, house potentially awesome computers, and so on. What do the players want, and how do they communicate that to the GM.

The totem, from White Wolf, is a chance for the players to decide what they want. Let's set aside asymmetrical investment for a second and consider the investment of the group as a whole. A group that invests nothing into their totem has a very weak totem but are individually strong. A group that invests heavily in a totem aren't as powerful individually, but have powerful group benefits.

A ship could be the same way. Your 200 point space opera might have 200 point characters all on a relatively lame ship that does little more than transport them from world to world, or 100 point characters who benefit from all the perks of a more powerful vessel.

If I want to create a situation where players can make these sorts of choices, I want to figure out how to do it. GURPS Conspiracy X looks like a place to start. Is that on e23? I don't think it's a 4e book.

Originally Posted by copeab

Many abilities are, in effect, group abilities in that while only one PC can use it, the rest of the party benefits (for example. Danger Sense).

What I'm talking about would be granting the entire party Danger Sense, so even when a party member was separated from the rest, he still benefited from it. The obvious solution to that is just to give everyone Danger Sense, but not all traits will work that way. An obvious solution for the Werewolf totem is that everyone just takes "Patron," and they decide together how powerful the patron is and what sort of extra goodies he can give. It's less clear how that would work for a ship. What's the price for an orbital attack, the control of which is spread across the group?

[Bruno]

GURPS Supers has some rules for party Patrons or Allies or Enemies, or more accurately, how to combine several different frequency rolls into a single one. Related conceptually, if not the same thing exactly.