Bronze Age Greece On A Shoestring Budget

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Jukkaimaru

Linothoraces are a really, really hot button topic, honestly. I've heard people say exactly what you've said, I've heard others claim there are over 70 primary sources in Greek literature

There are definitely dozens of references. All but one talks about other cultures wearing it, not Greeks. The last one is ambiguous but IMO it can be used as evidence of Greek usage. FWIW Strabo is the only author in the entire corpus of Greek texts that actually uses the word linothorax. Homer uses linothorex which is an adjective that just means "armoured in linen". Everyone else just calls it "linen armour" (thorakes linoi, etc)

and examples on pottery showing them in use by Greeks. I actually don't really know which to believe; I was just using it to try to drop the price a bit. XDD

I'd like someone to show me how they can tell the difference between metal, leather, and linen in a drawing.

[Jukkaimaru]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

There are definitely dozens of references. All but one talks about other cultures wearing it, not Greeks. The last one is ambiguous but IMO it can be used as evidence of Greek usage. FWIW Strabo is the only author in the entire corpus of Greek texts that actually uses the word "linothorax". Homer uses "linothorex" which is a compound noun that just means "armoured in linen".

Iiiiiinteresting. Well, the "70+ sources" figure I was on about comes from a snapshot pic talking about a university team's research into the armor...I want to say it was the University of Wisconsin but I could be wrong. They tested the hell out of their experimental sets, too. It was pretty interesting stuff, but like I said before...the whole thing about it is just this huge hot button that I've seen more than one outburst of internet rage over. XD Only thing that seems to draw more fury is discussions over the nature of Japanese armor.

I'd like someone show me how they can tell the difference between metal, leather, and linen in a drawing.

Good point. For what it's worth the armors on those pottery pieces really ARE tube and yoke designs that don't look anything like what you typically think of in a Greek cuirass, but it is quite possible they were at least leather if not even metal.

[DanHoward]

They wasted most of their resources testing glued linen. There isn't a scrap of evidence to suggest that glue was ever historically used by anyone to make armour. Layered textile armour has been used all over the world for thousands of years and there are plenty of surviving examples. Every single one was quilted, not glued.

[Jukkaimaru]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

They wasted most of their resources testing glued linen. There isn't a scrap of evidence to suggest that glue was ever historically used by anyone to make armour. Layered textile armour has been used all over the world for thousands of years and there are plenty of surviving examples. Every single one was quilted, not glued.

And that's what makes the linothorax issue that much more annoying for those of us with a mind for these things; there's all these examples of textile armors that have survived to the present, but there's not one of them that's an actual damn linen cuirass of the sort mentioned by the references (that I'm aware of, anyway)!

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Jukkaimaru

And that's what makes the linothorax issue that much more annoying for those of us with a mind for these things; there's all these examples of textile armors that have survived to the present, but there's not one of them that's an actual damn linen cuirass of the sort mentioned by the references (that I'm aware of, anyway)!

There is one. It was found at Patras but it dates to the end of the Mycenaean period. It is quilted like every other example of layered textile armour.

[Jukkaimaru]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

There is one. It was found at Patras but it dates to the end of the Mycenaean period. It is quilted like every other example of layered textile armour.

Would you happen to know *when* it was found? If it was known of before the university tests, that's a...somewhat severe failure to research on their part. XD

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Jukkaimaru

Would you happen to know *when* it was found? If it was known of before the university tests, that's a...somewhat severe failure to research on their part. XD

It hasn't been published yet. Doesn't matter. They should never have bothered with glue. They couldn't produce one line of text from a primary source anywhere in the world to suggest that glue was used to make armour. It would have been far more useful if they spent their resources experimenting with different ways to make quilted linen armour using different weaves of cloth.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Jukkaimaru

Good point. For what it's worth the armors on those pottery pieces really ARE tube and yoke designs that don't look anything like what you typically think of in a Greek cuirass, but it is quite possible they were at least leather if not even metal.

There was a tube and yoke armour found in Philip's tomb at Vergina made of iron.
http://www.superstock.com/stock-phot...ges/1788-18143
A lot of the illustrations in question could be depicting something like this. I don't think so. IMO leather is most likely, but you can't tell just by looking at drawings.

[Jukkaimaru]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

There was a tube and yoke armour found in Philip's tomb at Vergina made of iron.

Hah! Now that's cool to know.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Homer uses linothorex which is a compound noun that just means "armoured in linen".

Correction. It is an adjective (masculine, nominative, singular), not a noun.