Weapon Masters/Trained by a Master and All-Out Attack(Double)

[cmdicely]

I've long thought that rather than different All-Out Attack Options , the Determined effect (+4 to attack) ought to be the effect of All-Out Attack, and the other options should be combat options that involve taking a -4 penalty to attack rolls. AoA (Double) is a bit weird in that respect since it essentially duplicates an existing an existing option that takes -6 for some characters and -3 for others, so depending on whether you like the existing tradeoff of AoA (Double) better than the existing tradeoff of Rapid Strike you could dump Double as a special option and either keep Rapid Strike where it is at -6/-3, or make it -4/-2.

Conceptually, the same thing works with Committed Attack (so "Strong" becomes a combat option that gives +1 or +1 per 2 dice at -2 to attack, or +2 or +1/die at -4 to attack=, and "Long" costs -4 to Attack, and Feint is just an example of Rapid Strike exercising the option to trade attacks for feints.)

Making (or merging, in the case of Double) maneuver options into regular combat options, IMO, makes GURPS simpler and more consistent.

[vicky_molokh]

If you're doing, say, a triple Rapid Strike, with TbaM, you strike at -6/-6/-6. With AoA:Determined, you raise that to -2/-2/-2. With AoA:Double, you can do -6/-6/-6/-0. With AoA:Determined and a quad RS, you can get -5/-5/-5/-5.

Sometimes you might prefer one or the other.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

If you're doing, say, a triple Rapid Strike, with TbaM, you strike at -6/-6/-6. With AoA:Determined, you raise that to -2/-2/-2. With AoA:Double, you can do -6/-6/-6/-0.

The comparison I use is:

AoA: Determined and Rapid Strike triple: -2/-2/-2
AoA: Double and Rapid Strike: -0 and -3/-3 (or -3/-3 and -0)

The former is fine, but the latter is better if you need one especially well-aimed or especially Deceptive or whatever attack. My players tend to use that latter one to swamp defenses and follow it up with a really nasty aimed shot.

[tfaal]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

I've long thought that rather than different All-Out Attack Options , the Determined effect (+4 to attack) ought to be the effect of All-Out Attack, and the other options should be combat options that involve taking a -4 penalty to attack rolls. AoA (Double) is a bit weird in that respect since it essentially duplicates an existing an existing option that takes -6 for some characters and -3 for others, so depending on whether you like the existing tradeoff of AoA (Double) better than the existing tradeoff of Rapid Strike you could dump Double as a special option and either keep Rapid Strike where it is at -6/-3, or make it -4/-2.

Conceptually, the same thing works with Committed Attack (so "Strong" becomes a combat option that gives +1 or +1 per 2 dice at -2 to attack, or +2 or +1/die at -4 to attack=, and "Long" costs -4 to Attack, and Feint is just an example of Rapid Strike exercising the option to trade attacks for feints.)

Making (or merging, in the case of Double) maneuver options into regular combat options, IMO, makes GURPS simpler and more consistent.

I could not agree more with this. The whole concept of combat options being "embedded" in maneuvers seems wonky to me. *Especially* extra effort options, which have this strange Venn Diagram of things they can apply to.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by tfaal

I could not agree more with this. The whole concept of combat options being "embedded" in maneuvers seems wonky to me. *Especially* extra effort options, which have this strange Venn Diagram of things they can apply to.

OK, while I don't necessarily agree, let's play:

Let's say that you can trade -2 to ALL your own active defenses for +1 to an attack, and then you can:

* Keep the +1 for accuracy
* Trade -2 for +1 per die damage, or -1 for +1 per 2d
* The usual -2 for -1 to your foe's defenses

You may also trade
* Take -2 to hit for ONE extra step.
* Option: uncap that, and say it's -2 to hit for every extra step, or -2 to hit for every 20% of your encumbered Move. This may be unbalanced. It makes a full Move-and-Attack -10 to hit; but say you combine this with -10 to your defenses for +5 to hit, it makes a normal person's 100% Move -5 to hit.

The usual AoA (Double) would then be subsumed into the Rapid Strike rules.