Generation Ships

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Sindri

What would a generation ship with enough population and resources to maintain a TL 8 society and some left over focus it's technological advancement on?

Leaving aside the question of why the ship culture is TL 8, whatever resources that are available are likely to be focused upon, primarly theoretical, studies related to improved propulsion systems, life support and colony infrastructure at the end of the day looking for ways to make the journey faster and easier and their position at journey's end more secure.

I would suspect that particularly in the later part of the voyage, unless there is obvious competition with other ships or there are significant problems with the ship its self, that the last category will come to dominate. I would expect that any group with even a bit of relevant experience will have somebody promoting new equipment designs and radicaly modified colony proposals.

In contrast to the volume of theoretical work there may well be almost no practical development. The combination of a fragile environment and strictly limmited resources may well create a strong 'if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality' amongst the authorities overseeing maintence and production which would tend to treat new ideas as part of a library of options to be reviewed at leasure and probably to be held in reserve to address specific problems.

To take a specific example, you may well find that while there are half a dozen different proposals circulating to improve engine performance and shorten the flight that as long as the ship appears to be capable of compleating its mission comfortably according to the oridginal plan that the engines are still exactly the same peices of equipment that left earth at the start of the voyage.

This disparity between theory and practice may well be one of the major drivers of political activity on the ship with groups possibly even small scale conspiracies working to implement specific innovations.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Lamech

Spaceships disagrees with you. You can make a generation ship starting at... TL 7. That said spaceships is horribly optimistic about everything. However nothing really prevents a generation ship at TL 7 according to spaceships.

The sheer amount of machinery you'd need even to process all the needed crops (even if you can grow all the crops) would be large.

Unless you're going to pack a century or two of toilet paper you need a paper mill. Potentially a totally different mill for fibers for cloth. Then some sort of oil plant for feedstock for even the simplest utilitarian plastics. Rubber-production too. Even some wood for replacement furniture and small items. After that you can work on food crops.

All of this would be very hard on any ship you could even build in orbit at TL7. We're starting to talk about the industiral capacity of at least a small nation-state rather than just a city. Especially when you talk about the machinery to re-manufacture your other machinery after it wears out in 50 years.

You're going to need higher TLs for the miniaturization.

Also, I'm not going until they can do vatflesh to provide some meat. I don't want chicken and tuna either. :)

I'm saying TL10.

This leads me to say that genetic engineers need to be common enough in your crew that all of the children you produce will be maximized TL10 upgrades. It'd actually be a significant incentive for going.

Give everyone all the HT-based traits you can do at TL10 (including Alcohol Tolerance and No Hangover), +2 IQ and Common Sense as well. That ought to reduce your social problems.

Eidetic Memory and +4 Mathematical Ability would change your edcuational needs (and I do assume for the better). You can even add in Musical Talent, Intuition and Versatile too.

[Refplace]

Focusing on the Ops question of technology and possibly professions.
I would say a high amount of cross training and a maintenance rather then manufacturing as the focus. Education is key so higher then were used to amount of teachers, medicine and any repair technology are also crucial.
Entertainment tech would also be important and probably diverse.
Lets not forget psychology and social sciences either.

I think the theoretical more then physical sciences would also be the bigger draw as they require fewer resources. However you cant ignore them as you'll need them for repairs and at the other end on arrival.

[mearrin69]

I might have missed someone else making this point but it seems the ship itself could be programmed to control population. Maybe it keeps tabs on active population (counting embedded RFIDs or whatever) and pumps the folks food rations with birth control substances when kids aren't needed. If it could do it in a targeted way (rather than just piping it through the ventilation system) then it could even select who has kids based on genetics or something. Of course this would all be a Big Secret. A great conspiracy for people to uncover...and then sabotage and throw the whole thing off balance.

I don't see the problem with alcohol, or even stronger substances? We're talking about a generation ship, not a Navy vessel with a skeleton crew and tight shifts where everybody has to be sober 24/7. Abuse might be an issue that needs to be dealt with but casual consumption shouldn't be a big thing...until the grain harvest fails and people have to decide if they want bread or beer.
M

[Flyndaran]

TL8 means no symptom free drugs, or genetic engineering to help the inhabitants.
We are just now starting to have to redesign society because of the ever increasing "glut" of elderly.
What happens in a relatively safe enclosed environment when most of them are elderly?

[Lamech]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The sheer amount of machinery you'd need even to process all the needed crops (even if you can grow all the crops) would be large.

Specifically one open space module and 300 workers provides all food requirements. I did mention spaceships was horribly optimistic about everything right? If you want happy people with all sorts of amenities I would want fabricators on my ship which would give you TL 9. Of course, fabricators are also horribly optimistic, but still... The other advantage of TL 9 is AI's become possible which can make all sorts of stuff a lot easier.

So TL 7 if you don't care about standard of living TL 9 if you want a quasi-decent one, or don't like how spaceships glows with the optimism of a thousand suns.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Sindri

What would a generation ship with enough population and resources to maintain a TL 8 society and some left over focus it's technological advancement on?

A generation ship is the ultimate hydraulic state so what sort of repercussions would there be politically? What sort of economy would there be?

What would the society focus it's energy on? How do you keep people from getting bored or crazy?

Advancement, apart from learning the latest developments from home would not be a real priority. They have no way of obtaining new resources so their focus will be on recycling and maintaining a steady state. Maintenance will be the major priority. After that, learning new developments from Earth, and studying the feed from their destination (since presumably there was an automated probe first. Xenobiology would probably be their most active discipline.

[ericthered]

I'm going to say that a solo ship in communication with earth won't be focusing on advancements unless They are restricted in the information they receive by the information give. Which is a horribly one-sided arrangement, unless the ship has a nice advantage over earth (maybe scientists predominated, or the specialize in things that can't be done in the solar system OR with probes).

A true solo ship that is leaving earth behind will probably focus on techincal matters. Improving computers might happen, but I doubt it. our society seems to be throwing its full weight at the problem right now, and I don't think a generation ship has the capacity to make progress on the matter. Biology is a good thing to look at because the ship will have incrediable recycling capabilities in the first place (if not, thats the first thing you study). They will likely have very "bland" raw materials, so much of the study could be engineering E. Coli to do EVERYTHING.

If you have several ships on different routes but in communication, and either no link to earth or enough people that the ships can compete, each ship will specialize. The specialization could be extreme, and it could be laughable.
(we do soybeans. they do silicon chips. and the Hope of Man studies every possible use for poo).

and now I have an image of the society where FTL comes along, and you have a very wealthy planet whose inhabitants have extremely derogatory racial slurs.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

"I'm sorry Billy but your test scores were too high to be a game designing hobo from cargo bay 3. You're just going to have be an electrical engineer."

Hah yeah. Hopefully there will be enough population to mostly let people do what they want but the society will probably put an emphasis on sacrificing for the many.

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Meh, I was talking about hobbies there. They can make a difference at their job, and can learn a second job to make a difference at in their spare time if literally nothing else amuses them.



If we're so paranoid, why are we converting the surplus to recreational pharmaceuticals instead of preserving it somehow, in case the next hydroponic crop fails or something?

I think that there are people who would think maintaining the engines or whatever wasn't really making a difference.

If we are converting some of the surplus it's because we already have a buffer and you might as well use the surplus.

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Third, to survive interstellar space in a fragile bubble of technology a society would require both an awareness of all problems in the ship's society/culture and a society/culture composed of teams of individuals. Thus an Open Society is required and a highly egalitarian one too. And as talent can come from anywhere, and this society would need to develope all of its talents to survive, a society that educated all of its members to the limits of their abilities.

I don't think (wikipedia's description of) an open society is necessary for awareness of problems. Moreover there are some aspects of the open society that are questionable in the context of a generation ship.

Originally Posted by Danukian

Again, unless your entire crew has been recruited from the same isolated mono-ethnic town, there are going to be some 1st-genners missing something...



It's 100% possible to keep the 1st gen dry - recruit people that don't drink is the simplest! I'm sure by Gen 3, archaic entertainment your granddad loved just isn't going to cut it for a bunch of pent up teens that have never seen outside the skin of a ship...

Sure "realistically everyone is going to have to deal with at least some reduction in easy access to one of the foods they like."

Yeah generational change is problematic. It can be reduced by societal customs or longevity of older generations but it is hard to get rid of permanently. That said if you want to keep the ship dry it probably won't shift over to wet anytime soon. Some people might experiment but building a still and using food to produce alcohol under the disapproving eyes of the older generations when you didn't grow up in a culture where alcohol existed while it will probably happen seems like it will remain a limited hobby rather than producing a culture of drinkers.

Originally Posted by nondescript handle

I don't know how broadly you define "maintenance," but we're talking about less then a million people who'll have to maintain an entire industrial infrastructure on their own.

Go to your nearest city under 1 million pop and imagine they'll have to build everything themselves, provide every service themselves, and train all the people to do so themselves.
From the MRI in the hospital to the training of certified accountants, everything.

I'm not so sure they have enough capacity to include everyone in maintenance for psychological reasons.

But that's besides my point: Gold & Appel Inc spoke about catastrophes "by not hitting the wrong button during off hours."
And I have a really, really hard time imagining something so incredibly huge like a generational vessel where you could accidentally hit a button with catastrophic consequences, while in the residential and recreational parts of that ship.

Even if everyone is handling sludge in environmental for their mental well being, nobody will have the main environmental controls by his/her bunk close to the switches for the overhead. Not even submarines are build like that.

You don't actually have to build everything and provide every service. Once you have the capability and knowledge to keep yourself at your current level and have most things built then building things to replace broken things and occasionally building entirely new things takes much less effort. Also all the services that exist in a city on Earth may not exist on a generation ship. Some might even be actively discouraged. I define maintenance pretty broadly though including everything related to keeping the ship running.

Well no I think the buttons thing was an exaggeration. If people do drink they will probably do so in strictly recreational areas rather than be allowed to work with important equipment. A culture might dislike the mere presence of a substance that undermines someones ability to support the ship at all times though even if it isn't entirely rational.

Originally Posted by Frost

Again I tend to agree, this sort of structure is probably the best bet for any sort of long term coxeistence. It neatly avoids (or at least mitigates) the difficulties in handovers of power and authority between generations that may well occur under an authoritarian structure.

I would also have to disagree fairly loudly with Flyndaran, at the end of the day in the normal course of opperations the one thing generation ships do have is time to make decisions so slow decision making is a non-issue. Democratic structures are not incompatible with either restrictions upon either reckless or perverse decisions or robust contingency plans.

Decisions in the normal course can be made democratically and too much control leads to rebellions. I think it will probably be a fairly free society incorporating some sort of dictatorial part of government for emergencies but it will have an incredibly rigid culture focused on the needs of the many, don't fix what isn't broken, and highly limited conflicts due to it's hydraulic nature. There will also probably be methods to keep political arguments in their proper place.

The point about multiple ships is a good one. The single ship striking out into the void is cool and has some advantages but so does having three or some other number.

Originally Posted by Frost

Leaving aside the question of why the ship culture is TL 8, whatever resources that are available are likely to be focused upon, primarly theoretical, studies related to improved propulsion systems, life support and colony infrastructure at the end of the day looking for ways to make the journey faster and easier and their position at journey's end more secure.

I would suspect that particularly in the later part of the voyage, unless there is obvious competition with other ships or there are significant problems with the ship its self, that the last category will come to dominate. I would expect that any group with even a bit of relevant experience will have somebody promoting new equipment designs and radicaly modified colony proposals.

In contrast to the volume of theoretical work there may well be almost no practical development. The combination of a fragile environment and strictly limmited resources may well create a strong 'if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality' amongst the authorities overseeing maintence and production which would tend to treat new ideas as part of a library of options to be reviewed at leasure and probably to be held in reserve to address specific problems.

To take a specific example, you may well find that while there are half a dozen different proposals circulating to improve engine performance and shorten the flight that as long as the ship appears to be capable of compleating its mission comfortably according to the oridginal plan that the engines are still exactly the same peices of equipment that left earth at the start of the voyage.

This disparity between theory and practice may well be one of the major drivers of political activity on the ship with groups possibly even small scale conspiracies working to implement specific innovations.

You think propulsion systems will be a major focus? It seems like between accepting that you are in for a long trip, don't fix what isn't broken, and generations knowing nothing but the ship it would be while still interesting not a major focus. Still I suppose it does make sense for people to be interesting in improving (even if only theoretically) the things that are so relevant to their lives.

Otherwise it all makes sense

Originally Posted by Refplace

Focusing on the Ops question of technology and possibly professions.
I would say a high amount of cross training and a maintenance rather then manufacturing as the focus. Education is key so higher then were used to amount of teachers, medicine and any repair technology are also crucial.
Entertainment tech would also be important and probably diverse.
Lets not forget psychology and social sciences either.

I think the theoretical more then physical sciences would also be the bigger draw as they require fewer resources. However you cant ignore them as you'll need them for repairs and at the other end on arrival.

Makes sense. Do you think they will go in for highly technological entertainment or more low-tech things like RPGs? I suppose they might just answer "yes".

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by mearrin69

I might have missed someone else making this point but it seems the ship itself could be programmed to control population. Maybe it keeps tabs on active population (counting embedded RFIDs or whatever) and pumps the folks food rations with birth control substances when kids aren't needed. If it could do it in a targeted way (rather than just piping it through the ventilation system) then it could even select who has kids based on genetics or something. Of course this would all be a Big Secret. A great conspiracy for people to uncover...and then sabotage and throw the whole thing off balance.

I don't see the problem with alcohol, or even stronger substances? We're talking about a generation ship, not a Navy vessel with a skeleton crew and tight shifts where everybody has to be sober 24/7. Abuse might be an issue that needs to be dealt with but casual consumption shouldn't be a big thing...until the grain harvest fails and people have to decide if they want bread or beer.
M

I think the population can keep itself stable without secret conspiracies.

Well there is the question about whether aiming for a dry ship or a wet ship is better.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

TL8 means no symptom free drugs, or genetic engineering to help the inhabitants.
We are just now starting to have to redesign society because of the ever increasing "glut" of elderly.
What happens in a relatively safe enclosed environment when most of them are elderly?

They do what they can and the younger generation does the rest?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Advancement, apart from learning the latest developments from home would not be a real priority. They have no way of obtaining new resources so their focus will be on recycling and maintaining a steady state. Maintenance will be the major priority. After that, learning new developments from Earth, and studying the feed from their destination (since presumably there was an automated probe first. Xenobiology would probably be their most active discipline.

Xenobiology and other things related to their new home would seem to be popular at least among those who are interesting in the eventual destination.

Originally Posted by ericthered

I'm going to say that a solo ship in communication with earth won't be focusing on advancements unless They are restricted in the information they receive by the information give. Which is a horribly one-sided arrangement, unless the ship has a nice advantage over earth (maybe scientists predominated, or the specialize in things that can't be done in the solar system OR with probes).

A true solo ship that is leaving earth behind will probably focus on techincal matters. Improving computers might happen, but I doubt it. our society seems to be throwing its full weight at the problem right now, and I don't think a generation ship has the capacity to make progress on the matter. Biology is a good thing to look at because the ship will have incrediable recycling capabilities in the first place (if not, thats the first thing you study). They will likely have very "bland" raw materials, so much of the study could be engineering E. Coli to do EVERYTHING.

If you have several ships on different routes but in communication, and either no link to earth or enough people that the ships can compete, each ship will specialize. The specialization could be extreme, and it could be laughable.
(we do soybeans. they do silicon chips. and the Hope of Man studies every possible use for poo).

and now I have an image of the society where FTL comes along, and you have a very wealthy planet whose inhabitants have extremely derogatory racial slurs.

Well the farther they get away from Earth the harder it is to stay in communication. Also it's not like people won't be interesting in advancing things though they might focus on theoretics and engineering.