Dirty Tricks in combat

Dammann · 05-05-2012, 05:55 PM

The old "fishing with Gandhi," huh?

wellspring · 05-05-2012, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dammann

The old "fishing with Gandhi," huh?

In game terms, it's called a ruse. ;)

Maz · 05-05-2012, 07:20 PM

Hmh, this illustrates my problem with understanding Dirty Tricks.

Because as I see it most of these examples are simple normal combat actions. They might be considered "unfair" but they are not GURPS Dirty Tricks. I don't see anything about them that fall under the rules of "Dirty Tricks" (Potentially requiring IQ checks).

But I think it is also because what really confuse me is, what benefit should you get from making a Dirty Trick. The Liquid in face has clear rules for it.

The "Hey look behind you" I would say is a classic Dirty Trick which IMO would be an opposed IQ check. but what should it do? should it mean the other target spends his entire turn turning around to look behind him?
Or what about "your shoes untied" what benefit would it give me? Same with the "fishing with Gandhi". Would I scarifies my entire turn to do these and what would the actual rules-benefit be? I tend to agree with Wellspring that these are simply Ruses. Not Dirty Tricks.

"launch something to him, with a loose trajectory - no straight - trying to take advantage of his instict to grab it" This one I think is a pretty clever one. It has a pretty logical setup "Hey, think fast!" and the result is pretty obvious (grab thrown object) but should it also make him drop a weapon in order to catch the thing?

----

So I guess my question is more "What is a dirty trick" and what benefit does it give?

Dammann · 05-05-2012, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maz

"launch something to him, with a loose trajectory - no straight - trying to take advantage of his instict to grab it" This one I think is a pretty clever one. It has a pretty logical setup "Hey, think fast!" and the result is pretty obvious (grab thrown object) but should it also make him drop a weapon in order to catch the thing?

No, but if the opponent looks up to track the thrown object, you might hit him with a more direct (not arcing) ranged attack? employing a AoA (Double)? Or maybe that is a ranged Feint? Classic snow ball fighting dirty trick. I think this is a pretty great example! Dicerning at a glance where the real threat lies could work as a roll vs IQ.

Dammann · 05-05-2012, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maz

So I guess my question is more "What is a dirty trick" and what benefit does it give?

My answer would be that the specific effect depends on the trick, but you are seeking to give the opponent a penalty to attack on the subsequent round or on their active defenses immediately. Saying "look, the Goodyear Blimp!" might cause the opponent to change his facing if he fails to win a quick contest. Throwing a snow ball in a high arc to draw the eyes upward might give a penalty to Dodge on the follow-up snow ball (again, if they fail the quick contest or whatever). Yanking on the rug they are standing on might require a DX based quick contest, to avoid a -1 or -2 penalty (on active defenses or their next attack). Flashing a light in the opponents eyes might cause a penalty fodue to vision impairment the next round, whatever.

aesir23 · 05-05-2012, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maz

Hmh, this illustrates my problem with understanding Dirty Tricks.

Because as I see it most of these examples are simple normal combat actions. They might be considered "unfair" but they are not GURPS Dirty Tricks. I don't see anything about them that fall under the rules of "Dirty Tricks" (Potentially requiring IQ checks).

But I think it is also because what really confuse me is, what benefit should you get from making a Dirty Trick. The Liquid in face has clear rules for it.

The "Hey look behind you" I would say is a classic Dirty Trick which IMO would be an opposed IQ check. but what should it do? should it mean the other target spends his entire turn turning around to look behind him?
Or what about "your shoes untied" what benefit would it give me? Same with the "fishing with Gandhi". Would I scarifies my entire turn to do these and what would the actual rules-benefit be? I tend to agree with Wellspring that these are simply Ruses. Not Dirty Tricks.

"launch something to him, with a loose trajectory - no straight - trying to take advantage of his instict to grab it" This one I think is a pretty clever one. It has a pretty logical setup "Hey, think fast!" and the result is pretty obvious (grab thrown object) but should it also make him drop a weapon in order to catch the thing?

----

So I guess my question is more "What is a dirty trick" and what benefit does it give?

Most of these examples would qualify as Ruses-- IQ based Feints.

William · 05-06-2012, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dammann

The old "fishing with Gandhi," huh?

Is that what it's called? This is a known thing? I've never had someone try to pull this on me. It would certainly work the first time, because I'd much rather not fight someone. The second time they pulled it it would probably still work because I'm generous enough to figure the first time might have been a misunderstanding, and I'd really much rather not fight someone.

After that, though, assuming I'm in this fight because I can't run and the authorities aren't about, this fight doesn't end until one of us is dead or clearly incapacitated, because this guy has just lost the option to surrender. I could never trust him to try. This right here is the reason civilizations make a norm of the rule not to attack after calling for truce or surrender.

Dang, just the thought of somebody amoral enough to do that makes my blood boil. Weird.

Dammann · 05-06-2012, 06:40 AM

It isn't a common name for it, as far as I know. "Fishing with Gandhi" is a ruse described in an independent film of the same name, and it is pretty much the same trick you described. I was trying to be funny with the "the old..." thing. I liked the movie a lot, and the name is so apt that I like to see it spread.

You're right, it is offensively unfair and undermines the sense that a fight could be ended without some sort of outside intervention. Having had it actually done to you when you were young, it isn't surprising to me that you'd have a visceral response. It seems like a Dirty Trick to me, playing on someone's sense of limited violence. Probably not any good against orcs, but it could make a bar fight get awfully serious.

wellspring · 05-06-2012, 07:43 AM

I think you're right that most of these can be represented by one of the three kinds of Feint: feints, ruses and beats. Their main value is to momentarily distract the opponent.

Dirt in the face is an obvious Dirty Trick, but you're right that it's the only one I can think of that isn't either a combat maneuver or a Feint.

I still like the "dirty tricks" callout box because it helps a GM figure out how to run all those generic things that players think of that don't have rules. And, really, the suggested rules aren't all that tight anyway, and to the extent that they're fully baked at all, they are basically Ruses.

05-05-2012, 05:55 PM	#1
Dammann Join Date: May 2011	Re: Dirty Tricks in combat The old "fishing with Gandhi," huh?

05-05-2012, 07:20 PM	#3
Maz Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Denmark	Re: Dirty Tricks in combat Hmh, this illustrates my problem with understanding Dirty Tricks. Because as I see it most of these examples are simple normal combat actions. They might be considered "unfair" but they are not GURPS Dirty Tricks. I don't see anything about them that fall under the rules of "Dirty Tricks" (Potentially requiring IQ checks). But I think it is also because what really confuse me is, what benefit should you get from making a Dirty Trick. The Liquid in face has clear rules for it. The "Hey look behind you" I would say is a classic Dirty Trick which IMO would be an opposed IQ check. but what should it do? should it mean the other target spends his entire turn turning around to look behind him? Or what about "your shoes untied" what benefit would it give me? Same with the "fishing with Gandhi". Would I scarifies my entire turn to do these and what would the actual rules-benefit be? I tend to agree with Wellspring that these are simply Ruses. Not Dirty Tricks. "launch something to him, with a loose trajectory - no straight - trying to take advantage of his instict to grab it" This one I think is a pretty clever one. It has a pretty logical setup "Hey, think fast!" and the result is pretty obvious (grab thrown object) but should it also make him drop a weapon in order to catch the thing? ---- So I guess my question is more "What is a dirty trick" and what benefit does it give?

05-06-2012, 06:40 AM	#8
Dammann Join Date: May 2011	Re: Dirty Tricks in combat It isn't a common name for it, as far as I know. "Fishing with Gandhi" is a ruse described in an independent film of the same name, and it is pretty much the same trick you described. I was trying to be funny with the "the old..." thing. I liked the movie a lot, and the name is so apt that I like to see it spread. You're right, it is offensively unfair and undermines the sense that a fight could be ended without some sort of outside intervention. Having had it actually done to you when you were young, it isn't surprising to me that you'd have a visceral response. It seems like a Dirty Trick to me, playing on someone's sense of limited violence. Probably not any good against orcs, but it could make a bar fight get awfully serious.

05-06-2012, 07:43 AM	#9
wellspring Join Date: Apr 2011	Re: Dirty Tricks in combat I think you're right that most of these can be represented by one of the three kinds of Feint: feints, ruses and beats. Their main value is to momentarily distract the opponent. Dirt in the face is an obvious Dirty Trick, but you're right that it's the only one I can think of that isn't either a combat maneuver or a Feint. I still like the "dirty tricks" callout box because it helps a GM figure out how to run all those generic things that players think of that don't have rules. And, really, the suggested rules aren't all that tight anyway, and to the extent that they're fully baked at all, they are basically Ruses.