Forget DF: what about normal melee combat tactics??

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by apoc527

Ok, so my game night got canceled for what was going to be a beer & pretzels evening of DF. With the extra time, I simulated a quick duel between the Knight PC and the Orc Sergeant I am using from DFA1. The Knight was built on 150 points according to the DF on the Cheap.

Thus, the Orc and the Knight had weapon and shield skills of 14 each. How do two equally skilled combatants move a fight along?

Always remember, "You can't block an attack on your shield".

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ericthered

as long as your oppenent's defense if above 8, any attack above a 12 if comparatively worthless.

Might indicate a problem with your analysis then; crit chances for 15 and 16 sometimes are more valuable than deceptive attack bonuses. At skill 16, your best hit probability is:
Defense 7: no mod, hit chance 0.837
Defense 8: deceptive-1, hit chance 0.763
Defense 9: deceptive-1, hit chance 0.677
Defense 10: deceptive-1, hit chance 0.574
Defense 11: deceptive-2, hit chance 0.470
Defense 12: deceptive-2, hit chance 0.380
Defense 13: deceptive-2, hit chance 0.289
Defense 14: deceptive-2, hit chance 0.206
Defense 15: deceptive-3, hit chance 0.143
Defense 16+: no mod, hit chance 0.109

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Always remember, "You can't block an attack on your shield".

MA p. 112 disagrees, and the knight's Parry is just as good as his block anways, while the orc doesn't have to worry too much about sword cuts to a DR 4 HP 20 Unliving shield.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

MA p. 112 disagrees, and the knight's Parry is just as good as his block anways.

True but you do not get DB bonus to defenses against attacks against your shield.

[Bruno]

There's other options too.

Stop attacking - and I don't mean just "stop taking the Attack action", I mean opt out of this little duel scenario. Disengage and try to take the fight to a better location, where your allies are waiting, or whatever. If the other guy isn't expecting it he WON'T be standing with a Wait ready to hamstring you, so you've got an advantage here for sheer unexpectedness. It works better if your mobility in general is better, though :D But if he's not Waiting, don't turn around and run away, that gives him the mobility advantage as you burn a whole bunch of movement points turning. Run past him - now he has to turn. You're risking a Trip if you have to go directly past him (or an Armed Interdiction if you allow that technique) but if you were deadlocked in the straight up fight you'll be just as deadlocked here if not more so. If you want to be risky/fancy, do a Move and Attack instead of just a Move. If you're highly mobile and fear the trip, go with All Out Defense (Dodge) instead.
You won't get voted out of the knight club for staging a strategic retreat, I promise - and in this sense I really do mean a strategic retreat, not a polite term for running away. Running right past him is pretty ballsy anyways.

Use Dirty Tricks. Fighting fair is for people who aren't going to die if they loose. Try to reflect the sun into his eyes, or maneuver things around so the sun is at your back, or make witty/crude comments to try and fluster him, or whatever seems appropriate for your character and resources at hand.

Bring Friends is sort of a subset of Use Dirty Tricks if you're envisioning this as a one on one fight on an infinite white plane. But if you're envisioning this as a that duel on the infinite white plane, it's already a degenerate case.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kromm

They're a little iffy in one-on-one fights. If you use Move to get beside/behind your foe for your next maneuver, you use up a turn and he can simply turn for free as part of his next Attack maneuver (step allows that). If you use Move and Attack, it's basically the same deal, except that you get one lousy, unaimed attack capped at 9, and then he can turn and hit you while you can't parry or retreat. If you use All-Out Attack, well, you must use forward movement, so you have to be fairly mobile to begin with . . . and if you fail, he can just turn and hit you while you're defenseless. Committed Attack, as you said, at least allows a "pass" by counting as two steps that allow you to adjust facing, typically giving you a shot at his side. It's still terribly risky, having even worse defensive drawbacks than Move and Attack, and giving a -2 to hit for the extra step.

Runarounds really come into their own in many-on-many engagements, where you can often step from someone's nominal front to his nominal side with a normal Attack maneuver, as he's engaging your ally, not you.

Even with a Committed Attack rather than mlangsdorf's nasty, nasty sidestep trick, giving the opponent -2 for avoided DB and -2 for a side attack is huge, and the -2 to hit can be canceled out by making the attack Committed. No parry or retreat and -2 to defend is bad, but not as bad as what you did to the other guy. Unless he takes the opportunity to run-around you in return.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Unless he takes the opportunity to run-around you in return.

If the two of you keep circle-strafing each other, it will certainly speed up the fight resolution.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Even with a Committed Attack rather than mlangsdorf's nasty, nasty sidestep trick, giving the opponent -2 for avoided DB and -2 for a side attack is huge, and the -2 to hit can be canceled out by making the attack Committed. No parry or retreat and -2 to defend is bad, but not as bad as what you did to the other guy. Unless he takes the opportunity to run-around you in return.

Oh, no disagreement here – it's one of the few cases in GURPS where the "acting first" aspect of Basic Speed really counts. Whoever does this first has a seriously good chance of winning. This is borne out by the history of the pass in swordplay . . . which was pretty much deemed suicidal unless it killed your enemy first. I'm just saying that "zero risk" runarounds aren't possible in duels; they only occur in many-on-one and many-on-many combat. Moving from two-dimensional melee to, say, aerial combat, the comparison is between "engaging in a scissors, hoping you can outmaneuver your enemy before he gets inside a turn and kills you" and "coming across a scissors and assisting your ally by shooting the heck out of his enemy, who's too busy maneuvering to notice you there."

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

If you're using Committed Attacks and the advanced retreat options for Martial Arts, there's a not too difficult way to get around a single foe's shield. We'll work this from the Knight's perspective.

Start off 1 hex away from the orc. When he Steps forward to attack, defend with a Block and Sidestep. The knight should be in the orc's front weapon-side hex, and since the Orc just stepped, he can't turn to adjust. On the Knight's next turn, he Steps to the orc's weapon-side flank and murderizes him. For additional laughs, the Knight could attempt a Committed Attack and make a double step to Step away after the attack, limited the orc's ability to pull this same trick.

The Orc can also do this to the Knight, but the Knight can Parry with his sword when the Orc is on his flank, so it doesn't work as well.

Now you are describing the main tactic of my Arena Fighting Fencer. I was all about the Sideslip Retreat then Step to the Side and and attack. One of the main reasons I preferred this tactic is that I tried not to use my FP for Offensive Extra Efforts because I needed to save them for Feverish Defenses. I was very squishy and we had Ogres in the ring.

[jacobmuller]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Or the theater fight in the 1952 Scaramouche.

If you are playing a cinematic swashbuckler, and haven't seen that fight, do so. Now!

I like the initial duel in Princess Bride - the blade work looks more realistic or maybe it's that in scaramouche they were using extra effort a lot.

(for realists and the MEMAG is great if you don't live on a remote island)