Forget DF: what about normal melee combat tactics?? - Page 2

aesir23 · 05-01-2012, 09:48 AM

I think that 1-on-1 duels between highly skilled and evenly matched opponents are supposed to take a while, they're dramatic events after all.

It's the sort of thing you'd expect to be the climax of a book or film.

DouglasCole · 05-01-2012, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aesir23

I think that 1-on-1 duels between highly skilled and evenly matched opponents are supposed to take a while, they're dramatic events after all.

It's the sort of thing you'd expect to be the climax of a book or film.

Yeah, like the climactic ending fight scene from Equilibrium. :-)

apoc527 · 05-01-2012, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

The orc sergeant from MotFD has Combat Reflexes for +1, and he's got a medium shield for another +2, so some defenses at 13 are correct there. Presumably the knight has something similar going on.

Correct, the Knight has Combat Reflexes as well. I did forget that the Knight's Weapon Master ability halves the Rapid Strike penalties. That helps him a lot to make more attacks than the Orc can Block and Parry and Dodging is less likely.

Techpriest Vesper · 05-01-2012, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc527

Ok, so my game night got canceled for what was going to be a beer & pretzels evening of DF.

I don't have much to add except that if your DF game starts back up AND you are looking for extra players/GM's in the Seattle area I be available :D

Right now my group is way to into really light games, which are cool and all, but I wish I could get them to try GURPS :D

To add to your question... Extra Effect in Combat has some great ideas for players to use against equal or greater level foes... you don't want to use them against every little mook as they cost FP, but they can really help

RyanW · 05-01-2012, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Yeah, like the climactic ending fight scene from Equilibrium. :-)

Or the theater fight in the 1952 Scaramouche.

If you are playing a cinematic swashbuckler, and haven't seen that fight, do so. Now!

Kromm · 05-01-2012, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Runarounds have potential, though.

They're a little iffy in one-on-one fights. If you use Move to get beside/behind your foe for your next maneuver, you use up a turn and he can simply turn for free as part of his next Attack maneuver (step allows that). If you use Move and Attack, it's basically the same deal, except that you get one lousy, unaimed attack capped at 9, and then he can turn and hit you while you can't parry or retreat. If you use All-Out Attack, well, you must use forward movement, so you have to be fairly mobile to begin with . . . and if you fail, he can just turn and hit you while you're defenseless. Committed Attack, as you said, at least allows a "pass" by counting as two steps that allow you to adjust facing, typically giving you a shot at his side. It's still terribly risky, having even worse defensive drawbacks than Move and Attack, and giving a -2 to hit for the extra step.

Runarounds really come into their own in many-on-many engagements, where you can often step from someone's nominal front to his nominal side with a normal Attack maneuver, as he's engaging your ally, not you.

trooper6 · 05-01-2012, 11:51 AM

Maz said what I was going to say based on my experience playing Arena GURPS--use Giant Step to maneuver to the opponents Weapon Side so they lose their DB.

How to you stop that from happening? Wait. Say: I wait, the minute my opponent steps once while in my range I attack and then step away from him.

That stops the side attack...but if I were the first guy, I'd use my Opponent's Wait as an Opportunity to Evaluate until I hit +3 while he's waiting and then execute my attack with deceptive.

What that Arena taught me is that GURPS combat can be one of the most thrilling tactical things ever (by the way, now I always use Extra Effort, including in my realistic games--I think it adds just so much).

So the Giant Step is good.
Evaluate and Deceptive attack are good.
If there is a lot of Retreating going on, trying to push your opponent towards walls, cliffs, places with bad footing is good.

Also good considering the situation you've described?
*Attacking the Shield to destroy it.
*Shield Rushing to knock the foe down (you can Shield Rush with just one step and you'll have good odds of knocking the person down if you use Mighty Blows)...once they are on the ground...well...then it sucks to be them. Because then they can either stay down...or try to get up. And the process of getting up involves one turn kneeling...and you can't retreat when kneeling.
*If you've neutralized the shield, you still have to deal with the parry...but if you have a heavy shield, then you can just shield bash. Parrying a shield with most weapons usually results in the danger of the weapon being broken.

If using Extra Effort, the fun thing becomes when people start getting close to Fatigued...because then you really have to be careful. Once fatigue sets in...then you are really in trouble! So exciting!

I really recommend doing some Arena combat...it really opened my eyes to the beauty of GURPS combat in a way much deeper than it had been before. It taught me a lot and I feel my combats are much better for it.

If there is more than one person fighting the Orc? If you can get one person starting their attack behind the orc, the orc can't defend...and what is really effective in that situation? Stepping into close combat and grappling from behind. That is going to seriously neutralize that orc.

ericthered · 05-01-2012, 12:03 PM

I actually sat down and figured out given an attack score and dense score, what level of deceptive attack worked best (Ok, a computer did the figuring, but I told it to).

What I learned surprised me:

as long as your oppenent's defense if above 8, any attack above a 12 if comparatively worthless. The curve in the 8-12 range is so massive it dwarfs everything else.

Also, If you have matched scores but unmatched abilities, you can try other things.

I once made an orc with a lot of ST and an elf with a lot of DX. They were both using shields (not to mention parries) and the scores for attacking and defending where around 13 for the elf and 12 for the orc, but the orc did and could take more damage.

The tactic that worked fastest was feints. (the orc was using beats from martial arts), the problem was that you know when a beat happened, and the elf would go AoD right after a beat (and it saved his skin a lot).

even if you have roughly even scores, every other time you are going to get a bonus on the feint. I didn't use evaluate in that fight (I should have), but feint is a great way to turn a attack advantage into a defense penalty (the rate is 1-1 rather than 2-1)

Gold & Appel Inc · 05-01-2012, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered

I actually sat down and figured out given an attack score and dense score, what level of deceptive attack worked best (Ok, a computer did the figuring, but I told it to).

What I learned surprised me:

as long as your oppenent's defense if above 8, any attack above a 12 if comparatively worthless. The curve in the 8-12 range is so massive it dwarfs everything else.

Also... [snip]

Yeah, one of the mathematically-inclined guys in my group made a whole thread about this.

mlangsdorf · 05-01-2012, 12:10 PM

If you're using Committed Attacks and the advanced retreat options for Martial Arts, there's a not too difficult way to get around a single foe's shield. We'll work this from the Knight's perspective.

Start off 1 hex away from the orc. When he Steps forward to attack, defend with a Block and Sidestep. The knight should be in the orc's front weapon-side hex, and since the Orc just stepped, he can't turn to adjust. On the Knight's next turn, he Steps to the orc's weapon-side flank and murderizes him. For additional laughs, the Knight could attempt a Committed Attack and make a double step to Step away after the attack, limited the orc's ability to pull this same trick.

The Orc can also do this to the Knight, but the Knight can Parry with his sword when the Orc is on his flank, so it doesn't work as well.

05-01-2012, 09:48 AM	#11
aesir23 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Vermont	Re: Forget DF: what about normal melee combat tactics?? I think that 1-on-1 duels between highly skilled and evenly matched opponents are supposed to take a while, they're dramatic events after all. It's the sort of thing you'd expect to be the climax of a book or film. __________________ My ongoing thread of GURPS versions of DC Comics characters.

05-01-2012, 11:51 AM	#17
trooper6 Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Medford, MA	Re: Forget DF: what about normal melee combat tactics?? Maz said what I was going to say based on my experience playing Arena GURPS--use Giant Step to maneuver to the opponents Weapon Side so they lose their DB. How to you stop that from happening? Wait. Say: I wait, the minute my opponent steps once while in my range I attack and then step away from him. That stops the side attack...but if I were the first guy, I'd use my Opponent's Wait as an Opportunity to Evaluate until I hit +3 while he's waiting and then execute my attack with deceptive. What that Arena taught me is that GURPS combat can be one of the most thrilling tactical things ever (by the way, now I always use Extra Effort, including in my realistic games--I think it adds just so much). So the Giant Step is good. Evaluate and Deceptive attack are good. If there is a lot of Retreating going on, trying to push your opponent towards walls, cliffs, places with bad footing is good. Also good considering the situation you've described? Attacking the Shield to destroy it. Shield Rushing to knock the foe down (you can Shield Rush with just one step and you'll have good odds of knocking the person down if you use Mighty Blows)...once they are on the ground...well...then it sucks to be them. Because then they can either stay down...or try to get up. And the process of getting up involves one turn kneeling...and you can't retreat when kneeling. *If you've neutralized the shield, you still have to deal with the parry...but if you have a heavy shield, then you can just shield bash. Parrying a shield with most weapons usually results in the danger of the weapon being broken. If using Extra Effort, the fun thing becomes when people start getting close to Fatigued...because then you really have to be careful. Once fatigue sets in...then you are really in trouble! So exciting! I really recommend doing some Arena combat...it really opened my eyes to the beauty of GURPS combat in a way much deeper than it had been before. It taught me a lot and I feel my combats are much better for it. If there is more than one person fighting the Orc? If you can get one person starting their attack behind the orc, the orc can't defend...and what is really effective in that situation? Stepping into close combat and grappling from behind. That is going to seriously neutralize that orc.

05-01-2012, 12:03 PM	#18
ericthered Hero of Democracy Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: far from the ocean	Re: Forget DF: what about normal melee combat tactics?? I actually sat down and figured out given an attack score and dense score, what level of deceptive attack worked best (Ok, a computer did the figuring, but I told it to). What I learned surprised me: as long as your oppenent's defense if above 8, any attack above a 12 if comparatively worthless. The curve in the 8-12 range is so massive it dwarfs everything else. Also, If you have matched scores but unmatched abilities, you can try other things. I once made an orc with a lot of ST and an elf with a lot of DX. They were both using shields (not to mention parries) and the scores for attacking and defending where around 13 for the elf and 12 for the orc, but the orc did and could take more damage. The tactic that worked fastest was feints. (the orc was using beats from martial arts), the problem was that you know when a beat happened, and the elf would go AoD right after a beat (and it saved his skin a lot). even if you have roughly even scores, every other time you are going to get a bonus on the feint. I didn't use evaluate in that fight (I should have), but feint is a great way to turn a attack advantage into a defense penalty (the rate is 1-1 rather than 2-1)

05-01-2012, 12:10 PM	#20
mlangsdorf Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Austin, TX	Re: Forget DF: what about normal melee combat tactics?? If you're using Committed Attacks and the advanced retreat options for Martial Arts, there's a not too difficult way to get around a single foe's shield. We'll work this from the Knight's perspective. Start off 1 hex away from the orc. When he Steps forward to attack, defend with a Block and Sidestep. The knight should be in the orc's front weapon-side hex, and since the Orc just stepped, he can't turn to adjust. On the Knight's next turn, he Steps to the orc's weapon-side flank and murderizes him. For additional laughs, the Knight could attempt a Committed Attack and make a double step to Step away after the attack, limited the orc's ability to pull this same trick. The Orc can also do this to the Knight, but the Knight can Parry with his sword when the Orc is on his flank, so it doesn't work as well.