[DF] Mind Control resistance roll etc.

[cltchrn]

Is Bardic Mind Control different from Psionic Mind Control 2 other the limitations of the power modifier? A player has suggested that the description of using Psionic Mind Control in combat implies that you could command a foe to hold still while you beat him to death without a resistance roll every second. I had interpreted it to be in the same category as attacking his friends. Self preservation seems to be more important that the moral dilemma of attacking an ally.

Thoughts?

[Stix4armz]

DF 14 pg. 8 says that the victim of mind control only gets a quick contest resistance roll in each attempt to make him harm himself or his friends.

It then says that making him heal you, carry you, or *step between you and an attacker* do not give a resistance roll. Making a foe step in the way of an attacker clearly endangers him, you are making him allow harm to come to himself; using mind control to force someone to stand still would be no different.

That's what it says about Psionic mind control anyways. In answer to your first question, I couldn't find a difference between Bardic and Psionic mind control in the books other than the way that they are activated.

[Lamech]

Originally Posted by cltchrn

Thoughts?

You should be able to make someone give you their weapons, and armor then have them turn around and then brain them in the back of the head as hard as you can with a telegraphic all out attack. I would argue that they can probably defend themselves if they succeed on their (likely penalized) roll, and or knocked out or dead. Also they might end up surprised depending on the details of the mind control.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Lamech

You should be able to make someone give you their weapons, and armor then have them turn around and then brain them in the back of the head as hard as you can with a telegraphic all out attack. I would argue that they can probably defend themselves if they succeed on their (likely penalized) roll, and or knocked out or dead. Also they might end up surprised depending on the details of the mind control.

If Mind Control is being used in the midst of an ongoing fight, I think I'd give them a resistance roll to strip off their armor or completely disarm. You could instead tell them something like, "Can you look over there and tell me what you see? Take off your helmet to get a better look." Since this seems a reasonable command, they'd get no resistance roll, and the end result would be basically the same (the subject with his back to you with no helmet for several seconds).

But that's just my opinion, of course. The RAW seems to indicate that you can force them to do things that they know to be dangerous, without giving them an additional resistance check.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Stix4armz

*step between you and an attacker* do not give a resistance roll.

Yeah, but I don't think that's implying a Sacrificial Dodge, just that he move between your and the attacker's position on his turn.

[cltchrn]

Originally Posted by Stix4armz

It then says that making him heal you, carry you, or *step between you and an attacker* do not give a resistance roll. Making a foe step in the way of an attacker clearly endangers him, you are making him allow harm to come to himself; using mind control to force someone to stand still would be no different.

Just so everyone knows, this is my player, making his case. Below I will address a few specific reasons why I disagree.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

The RAW seems to indicate that you can force them to do things that they know to be dangerous, without giving them an additional resistance check.

But not things that "attempt to force the subject to act against his principles (e.g., commit suicide or harm a loved one)" (B68).

If the target has any survival instinct at all, wouldn't it be "against his principles" to not defend himself against someone who is obviously trying to kill him? That's the equivalent to assisted suicide—in my mind, at least.

In reference to Stix4armz's argument above, I think that the latin abbreviation "e.g." (examplis gratia, lit. "free example") implies that other plausible possibilities (examples) may exist, as opposed to "i.e." (id est, lit. "that is"), which would specify the possibilities explicitly.

I'm really not trying to be a grammar snob, but this is an important distinction to make. Just because "allow harm to come to himself" is inequivalent to "harm himself" does not mean that it is automatically excluded from a list of possible causes for a fresh quick contest/resistance check. I digress.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yeah, but I don't think that's implying a Sacrificial Dodge, just that he move between your and the attacker's position on his turn.

That is how I read it, and another reason I disagree with Stix4armz's interpretation above.

I know I'm the GM and I can just make a call easily enough, but I'd like to be fair to the players, for future reference. So, to somewhat reiterate the question:

When PCs are in combat, trying to kill DF monsters, when is it appropriate to require another quick contest to maintain control?

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by cltchrn

Is Bardic Mind Control different from Psionic Mind Control 2 other the limitations of the power modifier? A player has suggested that the description of using Psionic Mind Control in combat implies that you could command a foe to hold still while you beat him to death without a resistance roll every second. I had interpreted it to be in the same category as attacking his friends. Self preservation seems to be more important that the moral dilemma of attacking an ally.

By Bardic Mind Control, do you mean the Bardic Skills based on Enthrallment? Those are each more limited than full Mind Control, and even that is limited in certain ways. Your thinking, as suggested by the last two sentences quoted, appears to be in the spirit of the advantage as described in Basic. Victims of MC are not mere robots, and it's safe to assume that an order to stand and not defend himself from attack is equivalent to an order to harm himself.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by cltchrn

Is Bardic Mind Control different from Psionic Mind Control 2 other the limitations of the power modifier?

That power modifier makes a big difference! As soon as the Bard stops singing or playing his instrument, the effect ends. If he's singing, it's probably hard to give his slave(s) commands unless that's all he's focusing on during his turn. If he's playing, his hands are occupied. Also, Magic Resistance resists bardic MC, guys with no hearing are immune to it, etc., etc.

As far as making a guy freeze so you can kill him, I would probably allow it without another Quick Contest, on the theory that Mind Control blinds the victim to the fact that he and the Bard (or Mentalist) are enemies. But ultimately it's a flavor question. Maybe the PM should make a difference here somehow. Not sure how though.

[cltchrn]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

By Bardic Mind Control, do you mean the Bardic Skills based on Enthrallment?

No. The Bardic advantage.

Your thinking, as suggested by the last two sentences quoted, appears to be in the spirit of the advantage as described in Basic.

Yes. :)

Originally Posted by Gnome

That power modifier makes a big difference!

I understand that and the ramifications of the power modifiers. I should have clarified by saying that that portion of the initial question was originally from my player. His purpose in asking was because he was referring to the description of Mind Control from DF14, but the ability that is being used is the Bard Song advantage. I don't think the power modifier changes the primary effects of the advantage, but wanted to make sure I didn't miss something along the way.

As far as making a guy freeze so you can kill him, I would probably allow it without another Quick Contest, on the theory that Mind Control blinds the victim to the fact that he and the Bard (or Mentalist) are enemies.

Whereupon is this theory based? Is not Mind Control obvious to the target? If it is, I would assume the opposite.

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by Lamech

You should be able to make someone give you their weapons, and armor then have them turn around and then brain them in the back of the head as hard as you can with a telegraphic all out attack. I would argue that they can probably defend themselves if they succeed on their (likely penalized) roll, and or knocked out or dead. Also they might end up surprised depending on the details of the mind control.

Close your eyes and count backwards from 10 to 1. I'm going to surprise you!

SPLAT