[PU4, Powers] What does Cosmic power modifier actually do?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Combat Reflexes is unlikely to be added to a Cosmic Power, but if it was, it would benefit in the same ways the ST would, and it's bonuses would continue to apply in situations where they might otherwise be negated (as in the Cosmic Terror example), I might even allow Talent to add to those in some situations as well (but I would never add Talent to an Active Defense roll).

This is all true, but it doesn't have anything to do with the availability of Wild abilities.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This is all true, but it doesn't have anything to do with the availability of Wild abilities.

Well, my personal experience stuck it's nose in. My only experiences with Cosmic as a Power Modifier being available to PC's have been in Supers Games where we carry that particular standard.

Are there any open questions here at the moment, or is everyone satisfied?

[Tuoni]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Are there any open questions here at the moment, or is everyone satisfied?

I'm ecstatic that I didn't kill the thread, as is my usual tendency :)

Having said that, the thread will now die . . .

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

This is correct. That's what was meant by "all" in that sentence -- "the total of all."

I like the "rebate" analogy for Cosmic PM. You pay the full +50% for Cosmic PM, but then you get a single 50% discount when you add one or more Cosmic enhancements to the advantage. If you never bother adding any, then you still pay the full +50%, mind you, so it makes sense to add one.

Question: it seems unclear to me, but do you get a rebate / discount on your Cosmic enhancements if you have a Cosmic tier other the top tier +50% (ie, you deduct 10% from the sum of all Cosmics if you had a Cosmic tier PM of +10%)?

Also, is it possible to make a custom PM that contains the Cosmic, +50% PM (or lower tier) but with a small additional limitation, like that it can be shut down in specific circumstances? For instance, if you wanted an Angelic PM that trumped every other kind of power like the Cosmic PM, but with -5% for "doesn't work in unholy places" (or something like that). And in this case do you get the full 50% deduction off of Cosmic enhancements, 45%, or none (this one seems unlikely).

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Question: it seems unclear to me, but do you get a rebate / discount on your Cosmic enhancements if you have a Cosmic tier other the top tier +50% (ie, you deduct 10% from the sum of all Cosmics if you had a Cosmic tier PM of +10%)?

yes! umn, no! er.. not exaclty.... kinda!

If you look again at the section describing this "POWERS, GREAT AND SMALL", Powers Page 32, you'll find that only the very top tier is considered truly Cosmic. All the "lesser" powers are "Not Quite Cosmic" and only considered cosmic against powers on a lower tier than theirs.

Now adding Cosmic enhancements on lower tiered abilities are cheaper than their full Cosmic counterparts, but they don't function as cosmic unless the power they are opposing is of a lower tier, and this gives a point break. It's point cost is cut by the same fraction as the tier value. (EDIT! Lingering Attacks and Irresistible Attacks Prices are reduced, Not All Cosmic Modifiers!)

For example, if there are three tiers, no cosmic, Semi-cosmic and Cosmic, for +0, +25% or +50%, then the +25% tier add's it's cosmic Lingering Attack and Irresistible Attack enhancements at half (percentage) cost.

A "semi-cosmic" ability in this model would pay +150% For "Cosmic, Irresistible Attack" instead of +300% but it would only work on lower tiers (In this case, Tier 0, which would include anything with a power modifier really, just not Wild Advantages)

The Tier Enhancement value is treated the same as Cosmic when it is part of your modifier, in the regard that the first (insert percentage equal to Tier modifier) is subtracted from the sum of your total "Semi-Cosmc" modifiers.

So in the example above, the "semi-cosmic" power modifier of +25% would be subtracted from the +150% Cosmic (Ignores DR) and you'd have 25% + 125% just in the same way you would have 50% + 250% for full on cosmic.

Make sense?

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Also, is it possible to make a custom PM that contains the Cosmic, +50% PM (or lower tier) but with a small additional limitation, like that it can be shut down in specific circumstances? For instance, if you wanted an Angelic PM that trumped every other kind of power like the Cosmic PM, but with -5% for "doesn't work in unholy places" (or something like that). And in this case do you get the full 50% deduction off of Cosmic enhancements, 45%, or none (this one seems unlikely).

The Tier breakdowns are followed by examples that embed lesser cosmic tiers into the existing power modifiers. So there is no conflict with including limitations into your power modifier. This appears to have no impact on the cost or behavior of whatever tier of Cosmic (except of course when it is trumped my a specific limitation selection).

[Gurps Fan]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I think "any power, regardless of source" means "any source Neutralize could be otherwise purchased to work on" as Neutralize normally only works on ONE source.

Indeed, the rules say that when Cosmic ability and Cosmic countermeasure collides, both sides are supposed to be treated as lacking Cosmic. From this, however, does it follow that the Cosmic power is "then treated as wild"?

I don't think so. Cosmic countermeasure doesn't change the fact that the targeted power is not a set of some "wild" ("raw") advantages but it belongs to a specific power source ("energy of creation" in this case). I interpret "treat as if neither side were not Cosmic" as simply meaning that the immune-to-any-mundane-countermeasure part of the targeted Cosmic power is ignored. Borrowing the expression of PU4, depriving the subject of all the abilities that belong to one specific source is "how Neutralize works, not a Cosmic effect".

[Gurps Fan]

Let's take another example.

I always assumed Cosmic DR is completely immune to any mundane means to nagate it just because it's Cosmic. For instance, I thought that Cosmic DR is never wiped out by non-Cosmic Affliction (Negated Advantage), never peeled off by non-Cosmic Corrosion Attack, etc.

Now we're with PU4, does this assumption holds true? The description of Cosmic, Defensive, +50% (PU4, p. 7) states that this enhancement makes the ability "proof against Cosmic effects", and that the DR-reducing effect of Corrosion Attack is "part of how corrosion damage works, not a Cosmic effect".

Then how does Cosmic DR behave when it meets a mundame corrosion damage? Does the DR is immune to reduction by 1 per 5 points of corrosion damage (because the DR is Cosmic and there shouldn't be no mundane countermeasure), or not (because the DR reduction is not a Cosmic effect)?

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Let's take another example.

I always assumed Cosmic DR is completely immune to any mundane means to nagate it just because it's Cosmic. For instance, I thought that Cosmic DR is never wiped out by non-Cosmic Affliction (Negated Advantage), never peeled off by non-Cosmic Corrosion Attack, etc.

This is all true if Cosmic is your "Power Modifier." The Cosmic Power Modifier has a special place in the world of Powers.

Every time they specify that your Cosmic Powers cannot be taken away, they are in the midst of referencing Cosmic as a PM, and not as any specific Cosmic Enhancement.

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Now we're with PU4, does this assumption holds true? The description of Cosmic, Defensive, +50% (PU4, p. 7) states that this enhancement makes the ability "proof against Cosmic effects", and that the DR-reducing effect of Corrosion Attack is "part of how corrosion damage works, not a Cosmic effect".

Cosmic, Defensive, +50% is not only in PU4, it is in the BS (p. 103) Description for Cosmic "Defense or countermeasure." It negates any "cosmic" effects from the attacking power.

So yes, that makes perfect sense, corrosion effects are not cosmic, so they should operate normally.

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Then how does Cosmic DR behave when it meets a mundame corrosion damage? Does the DR is immune to reduction by 1 per 5 points of corrosion damage (because the DR is Cosmic and there shouldn't be no mundane countermeasure), or not (because the DR reduction is not a Cosmic effect)?

"Cosmic DR"
DR 10 (PM, Cosmic, +50%; Cosmic, Defensive, +0%) [75]
Would ignore such an insignificant corrosive effect to it's DR, it's just better than that.

but!

"DR with Cosmic on it"
DR 10 (Cosmic, Defensive, +50%) [75]

Would have it's DR corroded away normally

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I told you guys I found the free lunch!

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

yes! umn, no! er.. not exaclty.... kinda!

If you look again at the section describing this "POWERS, GREAT AND SMALL", Powers Page 32, you'll find that only the very top tier is considered truly Cosmic. All the "lesser" powers are "Not Quite Cosmic" and only considered cosmic against powers on a lower tier than theirs.

Now adding Cosmic enhancements on lower tiered abilities are cheaper than their full Cosmic counterparts, but they don't function as cosmic unless the power they are opposing is of a lower tier, and this gives a point break. It's point cost is cut by the same fraction as the tier value.

For example, if there are two tiers, Semi-cosmic and Cosmic, for +25% or +50%, then the +25% tier add's it's cosmic enhancements at half (percentage) cost.

A "semi-cosmic" ability in this model would pay +150% For "Cosmic, ignores all DR" instead of +300%

The Tier Enhancement value is treated the same as Cosmic when it is part of your modifier, in the regard that the first (insert percentage equal to Tier modifier) is subtracted from the sum of your total "Semi-Cosmc" modifiers.

So in the example above, the "semi-cosmic" power modifier of +25% would be subtracted from the +150% Cosmic (Ignores DR) and you'd have 25% + 125% just in the same way you would have 50% + 250% for full on cosmic.

Make sense?



The Tier breakdowns are followed by examples that embed lesser cosmic tiers into the existing power modifiers. So there is no conflict with including limitations into your power modifier. This appears to have no impact on the cost or behavior of whatever tier of Cosmic (except of course when it is trumped my a specific limitation selection).

Everything you've said makes complete sense and was how I already thought it should work; good to know someone else concurs as well. Thanks!

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Everything you've said makes complete sense and was how I already thought it should work; good to know someone else concurs as well. Thanks!

My pleasure.

I messed up a bit, but I fixed it :P