[PU4, Powers] What does Cosmic power modifier actually do?

[Gurps Fan]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I think "any power, regardless of source" means "any source Neutralize could be otherwise purchased to work on" as Neutralize normally only works on ONE source.

Indeed, the rules say that when Cosmic ability and Cosmic countermeasure collides, both sides are supposed to be treated as lacking Cosmic. From this, however, does it follow that the Cosmic power is "then treated as wild"?

I don't think so. Cosmic countermeasure doesn't change the fact that the targeted power is not a set of some "wild" ("raw") advantages but it belongs to a specific power source ("energy of creation" in this case). I interpret "treat as if neither side were not Cosmic" as simply meaning that the immune-to-any-mundane-countermeasure part of the targeted Cosmic power is ignored. Borrowing the expression of PU4, depriving the subject of all the abilities that belong to one specific source is "how Neutralize works, not a Cosmic effect".

[Gurps Fan]

Let's take another example.

I always assumed Cosmic DR is completely immune to any mundane means to nagate it just because it's Cosmic. For instance, I thought that Cosmic DR is never wiped out by non-Cosmic Affliction (Negated Advantage), never peeled off by non-Cosmic Corrosion Attack, etc.

Now we're with PU4, does this assumption holds true? The description of Cosmic, Defensive, +50% (PU4, p. 7) states that this enhancement makes the ability "proof against Cosmic effects", and that the DR-reducing effect of Corrosion Attack is "part of how corrosion damage works, not a Cosmic effect".

Then how does Cosmic DR behave when it meets a mundame corrosion damage? Does the DR is immune to reduction by 1 per 5 points of corrosion damage (because the DR is Cosmic and there shouldn't be no mundane countermeasure), or not (because the DR reduction is not a Cosmic effect)?

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Let's take another example.

I always assumed Cosmic DR is completely immune to any mundane means to nagate it just because it's Cosmic. For instance, I thought that Cosmic DR is never wiped out by non-Cosmic Affliction (Negated Advantage), never peeled off by non-Cosmic Corrosion Attack, etc.

This is all true if Cosmic is your "Power Modifier." The Cosmic Power Modifier has a special place in the world of Powers.

Every time they specify that your Cosmic Powers cannot be taken away, they are in the midst of referencing Cosmic as a PM, and not as any specific Cosmic Enhancement.

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Now we're with PU4, does this assumption holds true? The description of Cosmic, Defensive, +50% (PU4, p. 7) states that this enhancement makes the ability "proof against Cosmic effects", and that the DR-reducing effect of Corrosion Attack is "part of how corrosion damage works, not a Cosmic effect".

Cosmic, Defensive, +50% is not only in PU4, it is in the BS (p. 103) Description for Cosmic "Defense or countermeasure." It negates any "cosmic" effects from the attacking power.

So yes, that makes perfect sense, corrosion effects are not cosmic, so they should operate normally.

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Then how does Cosmic DR behave when it meets a mundame corrosion damage? Does the DR is immune to reduction by 1 per 5 points of corrosion damage (because the DR is Cosmic and there shouldn't be no mundane countermeasure), or not (because the DR reduction is not a Cosmic effect)?

"Cosmic DR"
DR 10 (PM, Cosmic, +50%; Cosmic, Defensive, +0%) [75]
Would ignore such an insignificant corrosive effect to it's DR, it's just better than that.

but!

"DR with Cosmic on it"
DR 10 (Cosmic, Defensive, +50%) [75]

Would have it's DR corroded away normally

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I told you guys I found the free lunch!

[Gurps Fan]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

"Cosmic DR"
DR 10 (PM, Cosmic, +50%; Cosmic, Defensive, +0%) [75]
Would ignore such an insignificant corrosive effect to it's DR, it's just better than that.

but!

"DR with Cosmic on it"
DR 10 (Cosmic, Defensive, +50%) [75]

Would have it's DR corroded away normally

Wow, free lunch! (>.<) Clearly the former is more useful and there's no reason for buying the latter.

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Innate Attack 1, Burn (PM, Tier 1, +10%; Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +50%; Cosmic, No Active Defense, +60%; Cosmic, No Die Roll, +60%; Cosmic, Unhealing Damage, +20%) [15]

Of course a 10% Cosmic, Defensive would knock it out, but how many inanimate objects, normal cops or safes would have DR with cosmic? (Some certainly WOULD in that type of setting, but still....)

So, definitely a handle with care situation

According to the rules as written on Powers, p. 32, your worry will vanish.

Originally Posted by Powers, p. 32

These not-quite-Cosmic enhancements don't let powers bypass wild advantages! Wild traits exist outside the hierarchy -- only truly cosmic powers can ignore them. In a setting where powers are this ordered, though, only mundane and racial advantages should be wild.

Such not-quite-Cosmic Irresistible attacks merely ignore DR from lesser powers. DR as a wild advantage is not affected. Inanimate objects, normal cops or safes all have their DR as their racial, natural, wild advantages; their DR doesn't come from magic/psionics/superpower/whatever in most cases.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Wow, free lunch! (>.<) Clearly the former is more useful and there's no reason for buying the latter.

According to the rules as written on Powers, p. 32, your worry will vanish.
Such not-quite-Cosmic Irresistible attacks merely ignore DR from lesser powers. DR as a wild advantage is not affected. Inanimate objects, normal cops or safes all have their DR as their racial, natural, wild advantages; their DR doesn't come from magic/psionics/superpower/whatever in most cases.

You're absolutely right, my example is totally off base. and it's not all Cosmic enhancements that are reduced, either, just Lingering Attack and Irresistible Attack!

My original comments appear in other's quotes above, but I edited them to prevent the spread of misinformation!

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Indeed, the rules say that when Cosmic ability and Cosmic countermeasure collides, both sides are supposed to be treated as lacking Cosmic. From this, however, does it follow that the Cosmic power is "then treated as wild"?

I accept that my characterization may be a leap, but if all I have on my power for a PM is Cosmic, and I treat the advantage like it did not have Cosmic, then it would not have a PM. Advantages without a PM are Wild.

This could be way off base. Cosmic enhancements could be stripped and the PM Enhancement that simply has the qualifier "Cosmic" still exists. But since it is that power modifier that expressly makes you immune to loosing access to your powers, it's still an argument for my interpretation of the end result.

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

I don't think so. Cosmic countermeasure doesn't change the fact that the targeted power is not a set of some "wild" ("raw") advantages but it belongs to a specific power source ("energy of creation" in this case). I interpret "treat as if neither side were not Cosmic" as simply meaning that the immune-to-any-mundane-countermeasure part of the targeted Cosmic power is ignored. Borrowing the expression of PU4, depriving the subject of all the abilities that belong to one specific source is "how Neutralize works, not a Cosmic effect".

Yup, and Neutralize (Cosmic, Unlimited, +300%) without the Cosmic has no "one specific source", (because it's chosen when you pick the power) and won't work at all.

Sorry if I'm being a little glib, but you can't take my Cosmic Power away! Not without inventing a new higher tier with a top tier PM of +100%!
(Don't do that! I can't afford to pay double for all my Cosmic enhancements!)