GURPS OLD WEST: Intimidation and the Movies

[hal]

In the Unforgiven - William Munny (Just watched the movie before retiring for bed last night) held off a LOT of men while using his shotgun. Then, Gene Hackman's character, who didn't start drawing a weapon and firing, did step forward saying words to the effect "He's only got one barrel left. After he kills me, draw your pistols and gun the <censored expletive> down."

William Munny of Missouri had a major reputation to begin with. After being beat bad (kicking until he had to crawl out of the room), and then reappearing before the same crowd that had been present for the beating, one could easily assume that these men were cowed.

But note here, that the men didn't run away in mindless fear prior to the owner of the establishment being killed with the first shotgun blast - they just didn't start blazing away. When the propriator was shot (presumably killed), the rest of the armed men didn't rush because of the remaining shotgun barrel presumably being ready. And even when there was a mis-fire, William Munny had time to draw a pistol and blaze away (seemingly without fast draw - I'd model that as William Munny having combat reflexes and EVERYONE being surprised that the last shotgun shell being a dud).

I noted that William Munny crouched when he took his shots (Going from fully erect to almost kneeling) - which in GURPS coupled with combat reflexes - probably was worth a -2 for being hit, and gave him what he needed for his "dodge" rolls.

After the initial blazing away of fire more or less settled down - William Munny told the remaining frozen men "If you want to live, leave the back way" in which a lot of the establishment's patrons left in a major hurry.

So - in this case? Walking in with a loaded shotgun, ready for bear might have given William Munny a +2, His reputation for killing anything that walked (in the movie, it was reputed that he had done so by his opposition, for which Clint's character said he'd killed anything that walked at one time or another) probably was worth a -2 give or take. The thing about Munny's reputation was - no one recognized him directly, but everyone knew his reputation by name. In some respects, I wish GURPS had given a little more of a "fine tuning" set of rules for how often someone is actually recognized by face versus how often their name is recognized <sigh>.

In any event - even with a successful intimidation per se, many of the men didn't run off in abject terror, but merely froze in place. How would that be modeled per se in GURPS?

[hal]

Originally Posted by safisher

You need Social Engineering. It has a whole section on Intimidation and crowds. Great supplement.

I read that briefly a while back when it first came out, and then promptly forgot it had anything on intimidation. I'll have to pull that back up again and see where it takes me. Thanks for the reminder.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Kromm

You could do worse than to add +|Bulk|/2, rounded down.

This is workable :) Consider it taken.

Ok, so lets look at the original "scene" from my last game run, and see how it could have been improved.

Three men are standing on a street bored as all heck. Hygene being what it is, most folk wouldn't want to be within a few feet of them without some way to block out the ripeness of their bodies. One jostles the other pointing out that across the street is some average looking guy wearing a holstered pistol - also wearing what looks to be a confederate's soldier's uniform sans any insignia. "Hey Elroy, lookit that" would have been the one's response to a sight of a man in grey. Later on, the rebel shows up (Keep in mind this is Kansas - home to bleeding Kansas) crossing the street after having entered into a gunsmith's shop earlier, and seemingly headed for the gunsmith's next to the three men.

"Lookit what we have here. A confederate uni form. Looks like a walkin dead man in a confederate uni form."

More words like that would pass between the one lone gunman (who actually has a +2 reputation as a gunslinger, but a muted reputation as someone that only sheriffs and gunslingers would know for now) and the three rowdies.

Angry at being picked upon, the lone gunman hikes his coat back and just stares at them from a distance of roughly 10 feet. Rolling a 12 against his Intimidation skill of 11 (he has Charisma but didn't talk) and he has Handsome - not to mention combat reflexes). In front of him were three men - the "leader" of the three had an IQ 10 and a skill 11 with his pistol. The remaining two had IQ's 10, HT 11 and 14 respectively, and both had skills of 10 with their pistols.

In the end? The scenario went down where the one lone gunman tried to stare down three. Their response was to step forward (rolling against their reaction, I had treated the intimidation as a roll against intimidation to gain a +2 bonus on the reaction roll, giving the boys a +1 due to them outnumbering the lone gunman). Net result was that the boys just stepped out with their own hands near to their pistols, but then just standing there.

At this point, the nearby people, fearing a gunfight errupting, all scrambled for cover as fast as possible. Fast as lightning, the lone gunfighter (the only one with fast draw), lines up his pistol on the chest of the middle guy (the seeming leader), fires a shot (but the round does an anemic 5 points of damage), the second shot he fires (He's faster in speed) is against the next guy to the right, while the center guy fires and almost hits (but for the dodge of the lone gunman), and then two more shots ring out towards the lone gunman while his shot centers on the third guy, who took a vitals hit (rolled a 1 on a 6 sided die). The .44 that hit the lone gunman, dishes out 6 points of damage, upped to 9, which coupled with prior damage to the player character, knocks him unconscious.

Then, the one guy who had taken a slug (#2 in the list of targets by the lone gunman), puts two more slugs into the prone gunman (rolled a respectful reactionroll by the center rowdy, but rolled a 5 reaction roll for the other one remaining standing. His damage rolls were 3 an 4 (rolled in front of everyone so people don't think I'm rigging the die rolls either for or against players). Those were upped to 4 and 6 respectively. With Hard to Kill and a HT of 13, the Lone gunman survives his death saving roll, and his bleeding stops within the 5 minutes it took for the Doctor to arrive on the scene. The other rowdy, having taken 18 points to the torso with a vitals hit, wasn't so lucky. He continued to bleed out until he was taken to the Doc's office some five minutes away (men carrying a wounded individual are notoriously slowere than a running man!). Wounded but still alive, the patient is put on the table and operated upon with almost unseemly haste, but the patient expires on the table as the doctor fails to find all of the blood vessels severed by the .38's entry into the chest.

So what could I have done to make this better? What could the player have done to emphasize his "intimidation" besides pulling his coat back in an obvious invitation to a gun fight?

[Kromm]

Intimidation is an Influence skill, so the rules effect of a successful use is equivalent to a "Good" reaction: "In a potential combat situation, the NPCs find the PCs likeable, or else too formidable to attack. The PCs may request aid or information; roll again at +1. (If a fight is in progress, the NPCs flee.)" Thus, if the fight hasn't started yet, the most probable reaction is that unfriendly NPCs won't draw or attack, while friendly ones think about assisting. Fleeing is only likely if the NPCs are already getting whupped and the person doing the whupping gives them a chance to skedaddle instead of getting shot.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by hal

IAnd even when there was a mis-fire, William Munny had time to draw a pistol and blaze away

The Unforgiven is a western masquerading as an anti-western (so is Lonesome Dove; Appaloosa is just a western, without the fake out). It's turning the genre upside down -- the white hats are bad guys, the black hats good guys, etc. So naturally the idea that a gunman would stand in a saloon and kill everyone while they all missed would look silly, except, of course, it doesn't in Unforgiven because its an homage to westerns.

My point, though, is that for PCs GURPS Tactical Shooting and Gun-Fu don't mix. You can't easily put them in GF situations and then use TS without the whole thing coming off badly for the PCs. It's fine to make the targets use TS and the PCs use Gun-Fu. Or at least have the PCs invest heavily in Thumbing, Fanning, or Fast-Firing, and Quick Shot. If your "guman" had put the points in those, he could have used Fast-Draw, then fired several times before his opponents had a chance to shoot. Hopefully he'll heal up, and then invest some off-screen time in a couple of techniques. If he's ever in a stand up fight like that again, he'll plug the lot of them.

[Dunadin777]

Originally Posted by hal

So what could I have done to make this better? What could the player have done to emphasize his "intimidation" besides pulling his coat back in an obvious invitation to a gun fight?

Seems like it turned out pretty well, actually. :)

But if you wanted to have a western stare-down and more drawn out intimidation contest, I would've turned it into a Regular Contest of Intimidation rolls--possibly until one side had accrued some arbitrary threshold, such as three wins. During the Regular Contest, the combatants glare at each other and hands waver over pistol grips--people notice and either run for the hills, batten down windows, or grab rifles to ensure the fighting doesn't spill over to them and theirs.

Also, if I were the former confederate and a legitimate gunman, I'd probably pick up some piece of Signature Gear linked to a very specific Reputation. Just something to tie to one's budding infamy as a lawless gun--something that can be easily shown or concealed would be ideal. That'd make the act of throwing back your coat be a chance to add your Rep to an intimidation contest, as the roughs suddenly see your signature pistol rig and realize you're Bad Andy from the Sawhorse Trail Massacre, or whatever.

[hal]

Originally Posted by safisher

The Unforgiven is a western masquerading as an anti-western (so is Lonesome Dove; Appaloosa is just a western, without the fake out). It's turning the genre upside down -- the white hats are bad guys, the black hats good guys, etc. So naturally the idea that a gunman would stand in a saloon and kill everyone while they all missed would look silly, except, of course, it doesn't in Unforgiven because its an homage to westerns.

My point, though, is that for PCs GURPS Tactical Shooting and Gun-Fu don't mix. You can't easily put them in GF situations and then use TS without the whole thing coming off badly for the PCs. It's fine to make the targets use TS and the PCs use Gun-Fu. Or at least have the PCs invest heavily in Thumbing, Fanning, or Fast-Firing, and Quick Shot. If your "guman" had put the points in those, he could have used Fast-Draw, then fired several times before his opponents had a chance to shoot. Hopefully he'll heal up, and then invest some off-screen time in a couple of techniques. If he's ever in a stand up fight like that again, he'll plug the lot of them.

As GM for this, most of the non-professionals are rarely ever going to have a gun skill higher than 11. While I have a copy of GUN-FU, I don't expect to be using it for the campaign due to its decidedly cinematic flavoring. The idea here is to try for a gritty feel if possible. The Tactical Shooting book has some good things in it and I'm using some of the rules from there - but the problem from the last game run was the intimidation aspect.

For the player in question - using a simple "threat" of his pistol and gun hand implying an invitation to a gunfight, and then rolling against Intimidation, kinda misses his intended target.

Investigating the rules more closely, I see that the proceedure I should be following is:

Roll versus Player Character's intimidation skill, minus -1 per five (or fraction thereof) targets he's trying to intimidate if more than one target, and then roll versus Highest Will rating of any of the NPC's being intimidated. Success by the person trying to intimidate results in the others thinking he's too good to handle and find some way to back down, while a failure on the part of the PC results in a contrary position.

Using Social Engineering, I see that in order to invite someone to do a rash thing, the PC has to engage in what amounts to fast talk (with perhaps a bonus point or or two for implying the other is a coward, etc).

The reason I brought up the "movies" aspect of examples of Intimidation, was to see how GURPS would handle some classic scenes in the movies. Two sides facing each other, with one side nervous or even fightened, but still in the fight, would be good for some penalties to accuracy, speed, etc. Having one side with Fast draw and the other side not have said skill, should give the edge to the one with the fast draw (providing he's accurate enough!). My hope here, is that others who read this thread later down the road, can get ideas for their own campaigns - as well as my self benefitting sufficiently to bring it in line with...

A) those who watch specific moments in those classic westerns
B) Those who are playing in a gritty campaign, knowing what to expect

Either way, I'm going to have to be prepared to spell things out for my players who haven't played much outside of TL 3 environements, or relatively peaceful TL 8 environments with little gun-play.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

Seems like it turned out pretty well, actually. :)

But if you wanted to have a western stare-down and more drawn out intimidation contest, I would've turned it into a Regular Contest of Intimidation rolls--possibly until one side had accrued some arbitrary threshold, such as three wins. During the Regular Contest, the combatants glare at each other and hands waver over pistol grips--people notice and either run for the hills, batten down windows, or grab rifles to ensure the fighting doesn't spill over to them and theirs.

Also, if I were the former confederate and a legitimate gunman, I'd probably pick up some piece of Signature Gear linked to a very specific Reputation. Just something to tie to one's budding infamy as a lawless gun--something that can be easily shown or concealed would be ideal. That'd make the act of throwing back your coat be a chance to add your Rep to an intimidation contest, as the roughs suddenly see your signature pistol rig and realize you're Bad Andy from the Sawhorse Trail Massacre, or whatever.

I'll have to remember to point that out to the one player who has a rep (which means I'll email him as soon as I finish here!). Always wearing something that is significant (except when you don't want to be known) isn't a half bad idea! Thanks. :)

[Kromm]

FWIW, I've often let Tactics work as a "social" skill in these situations. If one side roundly wins a Quick Contest of Tactics, it has outmaneuvered the other. I'm generally fine with giving the entire margin of victory as a bonus to Intimidation in that situation. Knowing that the other guys are behind you, have the high ground, and cover both ways out of the saloon is pretty intimidating, even if you're the better shot with the bigger gun.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by hal

The reason I brought up the "movies" aspect of examples of Intimidation, was to see how GURPS would handle some classic scenes in the movies.

All I'm saying is that movies are necessarily "cinematic," even those "gritty" anti-westerns. Using gritty GURPS rules based on realism is not always going to mesh well with those cinematic assumptions, and this is particularly true when, as I mentioned, the PCs don't have the skills to pull off the scenes they've watched. You may be talking about intimidation, but I was discussing the shooting end of the scene.

If you find it not so gritty if the gunmen have decent gun skills, understand that for all practical purposes the Guns techniques and perks were reality tested by real life modern gunmen, in the Single Action Shooter Society. Much of the gun play research in HT, TS, and GF originates from Hans and I actually going to the range. It's fairly gritty stuff, from that standpoint. In essence, a couple of perks and a few points in techniques are assumed in these works, even if the skill levels are not high.