[MA] Draw Cut

[aesir23]

I know this sort of thing has been discussed on these fora before, but I couldn't find the old discussions.

At any rate, please critique my version of the Draw Cut technique:

Draw Cut Hard
Defaults to any sword, knife, or fencing skill at -1, or Axe/Mace, Two-Handed Axe/Mace, or Polearm -3. Cannot be improved above Default Skill.

The draw cut involves dragging your blade across the your opponent's flesh. This is a highly damaging attack as it engages as much of your cutting edge as possible. In order to use this technique, you must be weilding a weapon capable of cutting attacks with a blade at least 6" long.

Draw Cuts gain a +2 Damage bonus, accessed after DR but before Wounding Modifiers. If the blade is already in contact with the flesh, Draw Cuts are much easier to pull off. Therefore, if the Draw Cut is part of an All-Out-Attack (Double) or Rapid Strike where the preceding attack was a successful swing with the same weapon, Draw Cuts receive a +1 to their to hit roll.

However, Draw Cuts gain Armor Divisor (.5) and can never do Blunt Trauma or knockback. If using the "Edge Protection" rules from Low Tech, Draw Cuts do 0 damage if they don't penetrate the armor enough to do Cutting. GMs using harsh realism may rule that Draw Cuts are simply ineffective against armor with a DR greater than 1.

Draw Cuts are fully compatible with All-Out Attacks, Commuted Attacks, Defensive Attacks, Spinning Attacks, and Telegraphic Attacks.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I know this sort of thing has been discussed on these fora before, but I couldn't find the old discussions.

At any rate, please critique my version of the Draw Cut technique:

+2 to damage, or +1 per die of damage maybe, so it scales? Otherwise it looks pretty decent.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

+2 to damage, or +1 per die of damage maybe, so it scales?

Oh yeah, forgot about that.

I wasn't sure I wanted the damage bonus to be that high, but the drawbacks seemed severe enough that I couldn't justify the technique being at a penalty if it only gave a +1 damage bonus.

I want it to be at least -1 skill to start with because I believe that it is harder to execute than a chopping blow.

[Dunadin777]

It seems to me that a draw cut is necessarily more shallow than a good regular swing cut. So I'd think that such a maneuver should have a damage cap that it can only cause (maximum normal damage)-2 or something. You can keep the damage bonus, but this would simulate that the draw cut causes more injury on average, but has less potential at the same time.

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

It seems to me that a draw cut is necessarily more shallow than a good regular swing cut. So I'd think that such a maneuver should have a damage cap that it can only cause (maximum normal damage)-2 or something. You can keep the damage bonus, but this would simulate that the draw cut causes more injury on average, but has less potential at the same time.

Two other qualifiers: a particularly sharp sword, knife, or polearm (not all will qualify); also, sw seems completely out. I'd base it on thr. This type of attack seems more likely to inflict shallow soft tissue damage -- great on flesh, terrible on bone -- and may well inflict a lot of bleeding damage. Not sure offhand how to model that offhand. It seems like it would perform quite well as a finishing move on the neck.

[Dunadin777]

Originally Posted by ULFGARD

Two other qualifiers: a particularly sharp sword, knife, or polearm (not all will qualify); also, sw seems completely out. I'd base it on thr. This type of attack seems more likely to inflict shallow soft tissue damage -- great on flesh, terrible on bone -- and may well inflict a lot of bleeding damage. Not sure offhand how to model that offhand. It seems like it would perform quite well as a finishing move on the neck.

Yeah, I would lean towards Thr-based damage, too. For the bonus to bleeding, maybe mitigate some of the to-hit penalty for veins and arteries? Makes for great messy executions that are low-impact on your weapon.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by ULFGARD

I'd base it on thr. This type of attack seems more likely to inflict shallow soft tissue damage -- great on flesh, terrible on bone -- and may well inflict a lot of bleeding damage. Not sure offhand how to model that offhand. It seems like it would perform quite well as a finishing move on the neck.

Yes, I'd thought about basing it on Thrust, but that means that where ever I set the damage bonus, there will be a break point where above a certain strength it always does more damage to just swing at someone.

I'm not sure I agree with you on how shallow it always is it's a pretty effective way to saw through a tough piece of meat. You could gut a man or turn him into a pez-dispenser with a draw cut.

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

For the bonus to bleeding, maybe mitigate some of the to-hit penalty for veins and arteries?

That's a great idea. I think I'll steal that. That mitigates some of the downside of it only being thrust based.

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Yes, I'd thought about basing it on Thrust, but that means that where ever I set the damage bonus, there will be a break point where above a certain strength it always does more damage to just swing at someone.

Well, not all maneuvers are going to be universally useful. But if you use Dunadin777's idea about targeting veins/arteries, I think it'd be a good reason to go for it.

I'm not sure I agree with you on how shallow it always is it's a pretty effective way to saw through a tough piece of meat. You could gut a man or turn him into a pez-dispenser with a draw cut.

I just think that it would take an especially sharp edge for a sword blade. It has been pointed out (to me) elsewhere that swords generally aren't quite so sharp -- they're dull enough that they can used to grapple in many cases. However, I would expect that this might be an excellent fencing maneuver for some of the straight edged fencing weapons, which were often of higher quality and might well be razor sharp (in part because they weren't expected to hit armor) and would be used against civilians rather than armored soldiers. Just my 2 cents.

(I should mention that I like the idea of the maneuver a lot, though.)

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by ULFGARD

It has been pointed out (to me) elsewhere that swords generally aren't quite so sharp

This is largely a misconception. Most swords, intended for combat, for most of history were sharpened as much as possible within the limits of the material.

-- they're dull enough that they can used to grapple in many cases.

Swords intended for half-swording weren't edged below the ricosso. Also nearly every sword style that I'm personally aware of includes at minimum leather gloves, and often actual gauntlets.

[Dunadin777]

Here's how I would write it up:

Draw Cut Hard
Defaults to any sword, knife, or fencing skill at -3, or Axe/Mace, Two-Handed Axe/Mace, or Polearm -5. Cannot be improved above Default Skill -1.

The draw cut involves dragging your blade across the your opponent's flesh. This is a highly damaging attack as it engages as much of your cutting edge as possible, making the cut longer but shallower. In order to use this technique, you must be wielding a weapon capable of cutting attacks with a blade at least 6" long.

Draw Cuts use Thr-based cutting damage and they reduce the penalty to target veins and arteries to that of the respective limb or neck.

Draw Cuts are affected normally by DR and edge protection.

Draw Cuts are fully compatible with All-Out Attacks, Commuted Attacks, Defensive Attacks, Spinning Attacks, and Telegraphic Attacks.

This makes it so the Draw Cut functions a bit more elegantly, IMHO, and the technique cap ensures that at best a swordsman with this technique maxed at Skill -1 has two approaches. A traditional attack based on Sw damage for the artery at full penalty (IDHMBWM and can't recall it right now) or a Draw Cut based on Thr damage for the limb (or neck!) at an extra -1.

Sound good?