Dodging and combat questions

[jamesfoxbr]

Thank you
Then if I get it, Active Defense against ranged attacks use the same rules to defend like melee:

-2 if attack came from side hexes
No defense if attack came from rear hex.

Right?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Dodging is a discrete, conscious action only when you attempt an Acrobatic Dodge, a retreat (dive, sideslip, slip . . .), a Power Dodge (or similar trick, like a blink with Warp or the Blink spell), or other "special" dodge. You can do such things once per turn, barring cinematic rules like the chambara option for warriors with Trained by a Master or Weapon Master (see Martial Arts). All other dodges are the game's way of abstracting the effects of your movement in combat on all potential attackers you know about and thus are capable of plotting your movement around. Each Dodge roll is a check to see whether said movement voids a given attack; it's closer to a HT roll to resist poison than to a true defensive action. You can't dodge surprise attacks because you can't take into account foes you don't know about when you move. You can't dodge after an All-Out Attack – or a Committed Attack or Move and Attack with a kick – because your movement is predictable enough that attackers can account for it. Neither of the latter exceptions implies that the rest of the time, each dodge is a discrete, deliberate decision.

Thus, you may dodge any attack from any attacker you know about, whether that means one or 100 attacks, and whether they're using bites, axes, or guns. Ducking and weaving through 100 orcs you can see implies getting dodges against all of them. In practice, you won't be able to see a whole horde of foes – some will flank you. Likewise, you won't be able to see truly distant foes with missile weapons. If you're outnumbered by enemies with the common courtesy to stand in front of you in a row, well, you get dodges galore against them. More likely, you'll dodge at -2 against a few on your flanks (the penalty for incomplete awareness of those enemies), and possibly get no dodge at all against the ones behind you or supporting their pals from a sniper perch.

again it not that it's the back hex that makes dodge impossible it that the back hex is the mostly like that you are unaware of the attack is comming.

B394: "Defender cannot see his attacker. If the attacker (including his weapon) is invisible but the defender is aware that he is being attacked, he may dodge at -4. If the defender makes a Hearing-2 roll, he may also parry or block - still at -4."

[jamesfoxbr]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

B394: "Defender cannot see his attacker. If the attacker (including his weapon) is invisible but the defender is aware that he is being attacked, he may dodge at -4. If the defender makes a Hearing-2 roll, he may also parry or block - still at -4."

But this rules is for invisible opponents, and firearms are very fast to defend after the sound of shot.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by jamesfoxbr

But this rules is for invisible opponents, and firearms are very fast to defend after the sound of shot.

Not so. They don't have to be literally invisible then just have not seen.

This is the differences from of an previously unknown sniper shooting (you're unaware of the attack) And incoming fire repeated fire from gun position you haven't be able to locate yet. (effectively invisible -4 to dodge)

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by jamesfoxbr

But this rules is for invisible opponents, and firearms are very fast to defend after the sound of shot.

Being "aware of an attack" in the case of firearms just means being aware that someone is shooting at you, not that you hear or see the gun firing. It assumes that anyone in combat, unless they're taking actions that prevent defense rolls (ie, All Out Attack) is moving evasively with respect to enemy shooters that they are aware of. This may mean zigging and zagging across open ground, trying to place cover between yourself and a potential attacker, etc. I personally think this is too generous; Tactical Shooting introduces an option in which a Dodge is a reaction to an expected shot from a single shooter, meaning you have to see the gun being aimed in your direction and you're actively dodging its line of fire, and you can only do this against one attacker at a time.

But by RAW, as roguebfl says, if you're expecting the shot but can't see the shooter you can still Dodge, at -4.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by jamesfoxbr

But this rules is for invisible opponents, and firearms are very fast to defend after the sound of shot.

Just in case some of the oblique references aren't hitting home: You do not defend against firearms as in "bang . . . then, I dodge." You are aware that someone is shooting at you by seeing them AS they line up for you.

This is not always as straight-forward as one might like, and sometimes it gets hard to rationalize . . . especially since one normally declares a defense AFTER you know if you're going to be hit, which might imply some sort of anticipation anywhere from "well, he was DEFINITELY pointing that gun at me" to "You mean I can dodge bullets? (" . . . you won't have to.")"

The Harsh Realism rules that speak to active defenses vs firearms especially (even a slow bullet is ~250 yards per second, a .45 ACP, and a fast one over 1,000) deal with some of the occasional WTFrack moments that can be induced from this. But the flip side here is that most guns will do at least on the order of 3d injury, which is a "one shot to KO, two to dead" kind of risk . . . so the rules as they are can make up for this. Some. Still plenty deadly.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Just in case some of the oblique references aren't hitting home: You do not defend against firearms as in "bang . . . then, I dodge." You are aware that someone is shooting at you by seeing them AS they line up for you.

This is not always as straight-forward as one might like, and sometimes it gets hard to rationalize . . . especially since one normally declares a defense AFTER you know if you're going to be hit, which might imply some sort of anticipation anywhere from "well, he was DEFINITELY pointing that gun at me" to "You mean I can dodge bullets? (" . . . you won't have to.")"

One option I especially like (haven't really applied it in-game yet, though) is TBone's "DECIDE" rule (published in Pyramid 3/34 as "Do-Or-Die Bullet Dodging"). Basically, defenses are declared before the GM says whether an attack has hit - at least in cases where attacks are going fast enough that you can't "see" the result before it happens (ie, bullets and beams).

The Harsh Realism rules that speak to active defenses vs firearms especially (even a slow bullet is ~250 yards per second, a .45 ACP, and a fast one over 1,000) deal with some of the occasional WTFrack moments that can be induced from this. But the flip side here is that most guns will do at least on the order of 3d injury, which is a "one shot to KO, two to dead" kind of risk . . . so the rules as they are can make up for this. Some. Still plenty deadly.

Combined with requiring defenses to be declared before the attack is resolved, this can actually make fights more realistic, encouraging PCs and NPCs alike to keep their heads down during Spraying Fire, and generally spoiling people's Aim.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

One option I especially like (haven't really applied it in-game yet, though) is TBone's "DECIDE" rule (published in Pyramid 3/34 as "Do-Or-Die Bullet Dodging"). . . . eclared before the attack is resolved, this can actually make fights more realistic, encouraging PCs and NPCs alike to keep their heads down during Spraying Fire, and generally spoiling people's Aim.

Basically agreed on all counts.

[Mister Negative]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

One option I especially like (haven't really applied it in-game yet, though) is TBone's "DECIDE" rule (published in Pyramid 3/34 as "Do-Or-Die Bullet Dodging"). Basically, defenses are declared before the GM says whether an attack has hit - at least in cases where attacks are going fast enough that you can't "see" the result before it happens (ie, bullets and beams).



Combined with requiring defenses to be declared before the attack is resolved, this can actually make fights more realistic, encouraging PCs and NPCs alike to keep their heads down during Spraying Fire, and generally spoiling people's Aim.

I've used DECIDE in a Dungeon Fantasy adventure (and I'm about to use it in an Action! adventure, and I can tell you that I really like how it works. I use it for everything, not just fast attacks, and it really makes the combats seem more interactive, not I-go, U-go.

People have to make hard choices ("Do I use my good parry, and lose my attack with this unbalanced weapon, or go with a worse dodge?") rather than knowing whether to bother with single use defenses.

It also seems to make players visualize how a fight flows more. Since they are declaring everything, they know whether they are blocking with a shield, or ducking the swing, regardless of whether it hits. Declaring their reactions seems to keep them in the moment.

As an aside, I assume that everybody always dodges, if they are aware of an attack, unless they say otherwise. If someone specifically says "I continue to aim." or "I stand here looking grim.", then they don't dodge. This way, the player who accidentally forgets doesn't get penalized.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Mister Negative

I've used DECIDE in a Dungeon Fantasy adventure (and I'm about to use it in an Action! adventure, and I can tell you that I really like how it works. I use it for everything, not just fast attacks, and it really makes the combats seem more interactive, not I-go, U-go.

Ah, good to know. So you use it for both melee and ranged defenses? How well do you find that works? Can skilled fighters "read" an attack as it's coming in, knowing whether it will hit (ie, declaring after the attack roll) by accepting a penalty to defend?