[DF] Easy arcane magic for Dungeon Fantasy

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Langy

It'd be a lot cheaper and more effective to just take an innate attack, such as the Magical Bolt in DF11.

Maybe, but the Magical Bolt doesn't do nearly as much damage. Though you could have innate attacks that do more damage, they wouldn't leave you with as much versatility. Lightning Stare has a bunch of air spells in the prereq chain, allowing you to buy other useful spells along the way like Walk on Air, Body of Air, and Concussion. Try replicating all that functionality with powers and see how many points it costs...

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Maybe, but the Magical Bolt doesn't do nearly as much damage. Though you could have innate attacks that do more damage, they wouldn't leave you with as much versatility. Lightning Stare has a bunch of air spells in the prereq chain, allowing you to buy other useful spells along the way like Walk on Air, Body of Air, and Concussion. Try replicating all that functionality with powers and see how many points it costs...

I was actually referring to just buying up a spell to 20 - that costs around 20 CP, even if the character already has enough IQ+Magery to get skill 15 cheaply. If you put those 20 CP into an innate attack, you not only get all the benefits of having all of those spells (including Lightning Stare), you also get an attack that does more damage and doesn't cost energy.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Langy

I was actually referring to just buying up a spell to 20 - that costs around 20 CP, even if the character already has enough IQ+Magery to get skill 15 cheaply. If you put those 20 CP into an innate attack, you not only get all the benefits of having all of those spells (including Lightning Stare), you also get an attack that does more damage and doesn't cost energy.

Yeah... "One-Spell Johnny," while doable with skill-based magic, is in most cases not an optimal use of points. Unfortunately, the spellcasting rules tend to require heavy specialization in a spell before it's competetive with other options (ie, compared to Heroic Archers and Weaponmasters) or even broadly useful (ie, Regular spells taking a full -1 per yard of range). Because of the broad range of spells that a caster will need at a high skill level (20+) this encourages dumping as many points as possible into IQ + Magery, with generally lopsided results.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

It's actually not an AA. The cost is kept down by the base damage being quite low, but it's a Cosmic attack that ignores armor and always hits its mark (unless they Dodge.) I've contemplated allowing such Innate Attacks as Alternates to a wizard's Magery, but folks around here didn't like the thought of Magery being "switchable" like that.

Oops, my mistake. The reason for my warning to langy was exactly that, that I was under the impression that the Bolt Attacks were cheap and high-damage and that he was potentially overlooking that they were AAs to something vital like Magery.

Sorry for the confusion.

... But if those Bolt attacks are so expensive for so little damage, do actual real players in genuine actively played campaigns ever decide to take them?

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

... But if those Bolt attacks are so expensive for so little damage, do actual real players in genuine actively played campaigns ever decide to take them?

I haven't had the opportunity to do so, but it's something I would consider even if playing a skill-based wizard. The Magical Bolt is an extremely reliable attack that can be used at any time - it's the equivalent of the D&D 4e Wizard's "At-Will" powers (if you're at all familiar with that.) While it's not terribly powerful, it keeps the wizard feeling useful even after they've used up their spellcasting mojo.

Actually, now that I reread it... the lower-level Magical Bolts inflict less than 1d of damage, and it's crushing meaning that its minimum is 0 instead of 1. That seriously reduces its potency - the first level of it (costing 5cp) has a 50% chance of basically fizzling by rolling 0 damage. You need to spend at least 25cp to get a bolt that will always inflict damage. If I was building an alternate version, I'd make it Burning instead (with No Incendiary Effect) and replace Cosmic: No Die Roll with Guided. It may not hit quite as often, but when it does it will be sure to inflict at least 1 damage.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I haven't had the opportunity to do so, but it's something I would consider even if playing a skill-based wizard. The Magical Bolt is an extremely reliable attack that can be used at any time - it's the equivalent of the D&D 4e Wizard's "At-Will" powers (if you're at all familiar with that.) While it's not terribly powerful, it keeps the wizard feeling useful even after they've used up their spellcasting mojo.

Actually, now that I reread it... the lower-level Magical Bolts inflict less than 1d of damage, and it's crushing meaning that its minimum is 0 instead of 1. That seriously reduces its potency - the first level of it (costing 5cp) has a 50% chance of basically fizzling by rolling 0 damage. You need to spend at least 25cp to get a bolt that will always inflict damage. If I was building an alternate version, I'd make it Burning instead (with No Incendiary Effect) and replace Cosmic: No Die Roll with Guided. It may not hit quite as often, but when it does it will be sure to inflict at least 1 damage.

I'd also get rid of Cosmic: Irresistible Attack, making it do significantly more actual damage rather than ignoring DR.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Langy

I was actually referring to just buying up a spell to 20 - that costs around 20 CP, even if the character already has enough IQ+Magery to get skill 15 cheaply. If you put those 20 CP into an innate attack, you not only get all the benefits of having all of those spells (including Lightning Stare), you also get an attack that does more damage and doesn't cost energy.

Since we're talking about DF here, 1 point will buy you the 15 skill even with the minimum IQ+Magery. Most wizards tend to buy Magery 6 IME, at which point the 20 skill costs only 4 CP. If you're an elf as well, it will cost only 2 CP. Compare that to Magical Bolt, which (as noted) does far less damage and costs way more points, though admittedly it's more reliable.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Compare that to Magical Bolt, which (as noted) does far less damage and costs way more points, though admittedly it's more reliable.

And cycles faster. But you've already invested "way more points" into being a wizard at this stage.

Incidentally, THAT is why I (personally) don't like the spell system as it stands. As written it makes the whole skill thing go pear shaped.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Bruno

And cycles faster.

What do you mean?

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Gnome

What do you mean?

Attack

vs

Cast, Attack


Or if you prefer comparing it to a Regular spell, "Doesn't take 1/yd range penalties".