[DF] Easy arcane magic for Dungeon Fantasy

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I guess it just boils down to which system you feel most comfortable with.

Indeed. Neither mechanism is 'clearly' better than the other, if it were, there wouldn't be this sort of discussion.

Originally Posted by Bruno

No, the advantages have the significant benefits of being one maneuver click-and-fire type abilities (much less frustrating for the player). This is difficult-bordering-on-impossible to achieve in the regular spell system.

Originally Posted by Pagan

What is so difficult about "roll 3 dice and if you get under your target number, this is the effect" That's the standard spell system. You lose "x" number of fatigue (and if subtraction is too difficult for them boy did they pick the wrong system to play).

Pagan's right, most Regular Spells are simply Skill Rolls with FP Cost - no more complex than the rest of the system.

A simple tweak to make Missile Spells virtually the same as an Innate-Attack Power; don't roll for the Missle Spell itself (perhaps limited to those with Spell Skill 15 or 16+, very likely for any serious wizard); then you have the same as the Advantage - Take your time, spend the FP, Roll an Innate attack Skill roll To Hit - Easy!

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I don't think it's the spell rules themselves that are the problem, so much as the huge breadth of choices available to a wizard. Choice paralysis is already a big issue for many new GURPS players, and the skill-based magic system gives a lot of choices. While Powers can be individually as complicated as spells, both in construction and use, they give the wizard a much smaller set of well-defined options at any given time.

Choice Paralysis was one of the OP's main issues; but there is no real harm in the GM giving the Player a list of a dozen useful spells, and omitting the Prerequisites from the list 'to keep it simple' (add the Prerequisite Count as an additional Point Cost if you want) - then you have the same 'choice' as giving the player a dozen advantages. (The GM can add the cost of the Prerequisites when helping the player create the character.)

The 'choice' issue is only really a new player issue - which applies to more than just the spell system, and to most rules systems of any complexity.
Once a player is familiar with the Spell rules, the 'choices' becomes the big plus side, and the reason to play a Wizard, for a couple of points in a couple of spells the wizard can get new abilities and powers; something which cannot easily be replicated with the advantage based magic mechanism.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I'm personally much less comfortable with the skill-based magic, and feel great trepidation at the thought of combing through the epic tome which is GURPS Magic to try and assemble even a single magical style.

Spells are listed in 1 book, with a good index, a Spell Table, and convenient categories. - Want Fireball - that's probably in the Fire College; Want to breath under water, thats probably a Water Spell, or is it an Air Spelll - it's both, how convenient.

Building Magic Advantages requires searching the advantages in Basic: Characters, probably Powers (that's at least 2 books) for the right Advantage, Enhancements and Limitations.
How do you create a Fireball - hmm, what advantage is that? Once you get the simple answer, most attacks are Innate Attack (that's easy, once you know) - Fireball is a Burning Attack. What about Lightning? not immediately obvious what sort of attack that is.
What about a Wall of Stone? There is not Wall Advantage; oh it's Innate Attack, really? OK - Fine once you know.
Amusingly for this comparison, there is no Wall of Stone Spell in Magic - ah well, just shows neither system is perfect.

Once a player gets the basic layout and hang of the Spell system, they can look through the Magic book themselves; something which is not likely to occur with the Advantage based Magic - the GM is going to have to build all options!

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by SCAR

Spells are listed in 1 book, with a good index, a Spell Table, and convenient categories. - Want Fireball - that's probably in the Fire College; Want to breath under water, thats probably a Water Spell, or is it an Air Spelll - it's both, how convenient.

One problem I often have is I start making a wizard, and want to give him a particular spell - say, Fireball - but the existing spell does not match what I envision for my character. Skill-based spells are versatile and varied, but unless what you're looking for is exactly how the authors designed the particular spell, many character concepts are SOL. The degree of tweaking I've had to do with Magery, ER etc. to get a skill-based concept to function how I want easily rivals the effort it takes to build the spell from scratch in exactly the desired configuration.

But really, this thread has drifted pretty far from the OP. His initial question was about how to make a Wizard spell list akin to the Dungeon Saints' miracles - ie, a Powers-based approach to magic. A debate about the relative merits of Powers vs Skills magic has its place, but I think it's run its course in this thread.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

But really, this thread has drifted pretty far from the OP. His initial question was about how to make a Wizard spell list akin to the Dungeon Saints' miracles - ie, a Powers-based approach to magic. A debate about the relative merits of Powers vs Skills magic has its place, but I think it's run its course in this thread.

Yes and No

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Is there a good similar concept for Wizards? I don't want to hand someone a list of 30 spells with weird dependencies, casting times, and what-not. That's not useful. And even Ritual Path Magic, my preferred alternate solution, is probably too complicated for anyone who isn't fairly skilled at GURPS.

I'd like something that replicates the feel of the normal DF Wizard - magical utility guy with some combat ability - but minimizes option paralysis. Building a bunch of specific advantages like "magic shield spell", "magic zapping spell", and "flight", possibly as alternate abilities of each other, is a possible solution, but I'm worried that the mage will lose too much utility. Full blown modular abilities, while amusing, would cost too much and leave us back in the realm of option paralysis which I'm really trying to avoid.

The primary concern seems to be Option Paralysis, Advantage Based spells was 'a possible solution'.

Remove the Option Paralysis from standard Magic by using Magical Styles, or simply hiding the Spell Prerequisites from the player for those less useful spells; would be a valid solution to the OP's problems, and would maintain the 'feel of the normal DF Wizard' and would not lose the utility of a DF Wizard.

I think the discussion is moot because the OP has settle on his Advantage-based Alternate abilities spell selection for this particular game.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by SCAR

The primary concern seems to be Option Paralysis, Advantage Based spells was 'a possible solution'.

The primary concern appears to be Option Paralysis and Casting Times and Weird Dependencies.

Weird Dependencies ie prerequisites are easily dealt with, we've established that - and tends to scrape out Option Paralysis with it.

Casting Times are not easily dealt with (nor general combat effectiveness, which seems to be part of the idea here).

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Casting Times are not easily dealt with (nor general combat effectiveness, which seems to be part of the idea here).

2 of the sample Advantage Magics Powers have the 'Takes Extra Time' Enhancements, the others don't.
So 'Air Burst 3' and 'Fireball 4' have a 'Casting Time' of 2 seconds, but the other Attack powers have a 'casting time' of 1 second.
Where is the real difference?

The Magic as Skills system is not entirely painless, nor is it perfect; but neither is an Advantage based Powers system. I does come down to personal preferences.
I do think that some people are seeing or even 'creating' issues which aren't really there.

[mlangsdorf]

The Lightning Bolt spell was supposed to take extra time, in order to mimic the feel of standard GURPS Magic, and also to better seperate the Wizard from the Scout in terms of ranged damage dealing.

I figured it didn't hurt to let the wizard have 1 quick combat spell for melee emergencies, hence, Icy Touch.

[Gnome]

Normally, casting times in the standard magic system can be reduced with high skill. Missile spells, however, are an exception to this: it takes a second to cast and a second to throw.
However, the little known spells Breathe Fire, Lightning Stare, Icy Breath, Breathe Steam and Spit Acid are direct damage spells that take effect immediately. They have a 2 second casting time, but with 20 skill the time is reduced to 1 second. So one solution for the "direct damage" type wizard is to specialize in one of these spells, raising skill to 20, enabling an attack every turn at short to mid range. I recommend Lightning Stare for the armor-bypassing and stun effects...

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Normally, casting times in the standard magic system can be reduced with high skill. Missile spells, however, are an exception to this: it takes a second to cast and a second to throw.
However, the little known spells Breathe Fire, Lightning Stare, Icy Breath, Breathe Steam and Spit Acid are direct damage spells that take effect immediately. They have a 2 second casting time, but with 20 skill the time is reduced to 1 second. So one solution for the "direct damage" type wizard is to specialize in one of these spells, raising skill to 20, enabling an attack every turn at short to mid range. I recommend Lightning Stare for the armor-bypassing and stun effects...

It'd be a lot cheaper and more effective to just take an innate attack, such as the Magical Bolt in DF11.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Langy

It'd be a lot cheaper and more effective to just take an innate attack, such as the Magical Bolt in DF11.

IIRC the Magical Bolt is handled as an Alternate Ability. If you skip the AA part, it becomes a lot more expensive.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

IIRC the Magical Bolt is handled as an Alternate Ability. If you skip the AA part, it becomes a lot more expensive.

It's actually not an AA. The cost is kept down by the base damage being quite low, but it's a Cosmic attack that ignores armor and always hits its mark (unless they Dodge.) I've contemplated allowing such Innate Attacks as Alternates to a wizard's Magery, but folks around here didn't like the thought of Magery being "switchable" like that.