[DF] Easy arcane magic for Dungeon Fantasy

[zoncxs]

the difference is the player needs to learn how spells work in the magic system, what happens when your skill is at certain levels, etc. with the powers approach they only need to know what it does. so lets take fireball:
Fireball 4 (Accessibility (Must Shout and Move) (+1); Costs Fatigue (+3);Explosive (Damage / 3xYards); Increased Range (1/2D Range only) (x5);Mana Sensitive; Takes Extra Time (+1)) [23]


the player only needs to see this on his/her sheet:

fireball lvl4: range 100yds; cost3FP; takes 2 turns; does 4d6 of damage to target and 4d6/(3 x distance from center) to everything else; must be able to shout and move; magical.


later on you can introduce skill based magic (spells) and show how those works, but for people who aren't used to that or played using gurps, its a tad bit better to use advantages as powers for magic


edit:: what I am trying to say is stop looking under the hood of the car and complaining that it is more complex than the motorcycle.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Bruno

No, the advantages have the significant benefits of being one maneuver click-and-fire type abilities (much less frustrating for the player). This is difficult-bordering-on-impossible to achieve in the regular spell system.

The Advantage-built spells can also be tweaked subsequently, without deviating a millimeter from the RAW. If your Wizard thinks that his Fireball spell costs too much FP, he can pay a rules-specified CP cost to reduce the Costs FP Limitation. And so forth.

And it's excellent for simulating small yet important differences between related magic systems, e.g. Norse magic in the Viking age may have evolved differently from common roots, relative to Saxon magic.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Pagan

I mean, look at some of the builds you guys have put down for powers as spells. They are way more complicated than the standard spell system. Unless all of your powers as spells don't use enhancements or limitations, I'm thinking they will be more confusing to someone who is used to "cast a spell and here is the effect as explained in this word block"..

On the other hand, what comes out of GURPS Powers doesn't look as if the world builder and/or GM stuck his hand up where the sun doesn't shine, and pulled out some random and completley arbitrary crap, to give to the players. "Here's your magic 'system', dudes!"

[Pagan]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

On the other hand, what comes out of GURPS Powers doesn't look as if the world builder and/or GM stuck his hand up where the sun doesn't shine, and pulled out some random and completley arbitrary crap, to give to the players. "Here's your magic 'system', dudes!"

I've been running a gurps fantasy campaign featuring all types of spellcasters and using mostly the standard magic system for 14 years. My schools of magic are as complex and varied as anything you'd make with powers and are all RAW legal. No random hand up the butt systems. I spend a great deal of time making sure all my magical styles are consistent with my game world.

And, as an aside, RAW legal doesn't really mean much in a personal campaign. If you were writing modules, that would be a relevant point. In anyone's personal campaign, RAW is what the GM decides the world is going to be like and the laws, physical and metaphysical that world depends upon.

[Pagan]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

the difference is the player needs to learn how spells work in the magic system, what happens when your skill is at certain levels, etc. with the powers approach they only need to know what it does. so lets take fireball:
Fireball 4 (Accessibility (Must Shout and Move) (+1); Costs Fatigue (+3);Explosive (Damage / 3xYards); Increased Range (1/2D Range only) (x5);Mana Sensitive; Takes Extra Time (+1)) [23]


the player only needs to see this on his/her sheet:

fireball lvl4: range 100yds; cost3FP; takes 2 turns; does 4d6 of damage to target and 4d6/(3 x distance from center) to everything else; must be able to shout and move; magical.

later on you can introduce skill based magic (spells) and show how those works, but for people who aren't used to that or played using gurps, its a tad bit better to use advantages as powers for magic


edit:: what I am trying to say is stop looking under the hood of the car and complaining that it is more complex than the motorcycle.

What happens when your player asks "What does lvl 4 mean?" "You mean I don't have to roll to hit?" "If I do have to roll to hit are there range penalties?" "Is there a possibility of spell failure?" "How much movement can I do and still cast"? Can I cast with just one arm free?"

The player is still going to have to learn how magic works...just now, they'll have to learn how YOU define magic since you effectively designed the system or they have to learn how Powers (advantages, disadvantages, enhancements, limitations, modifiers, etc) work. Powers isn't simple. Especially powers that simulate spell casting instead of super powers.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Pagan

What happens when your player asks "What does lvl 4 mean?" "You mean I don't have to roll to hit?" "If I do have to roll to hit are there range penalties?" "Is there a possibility of spell failure?" "How much movement can I do and still cast"? Can I cast with just one arm free?"

The player is still going to have to learn how magic works...just now, they'll have to learn how YOU define magic since you effectively designed the system or they have to learn how Powers (advantages, disadvantages, enhancements, limitations, modifiers, etc) work. Powers isn't simple. Especially powers that simulate spell casting instead of super powers.

Yes, the player is still going to have to learn how to play GURPS. They'd need to learn many of those same rules for using a gun or a sword. They need to know how skills work, what maneuvers allow what attack / defense / movement options, what the standard penalties are for ranged attacks, etc.

[Pagan]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Yes, the player is still going to have to learn how to play GURPS. They'd need to learn many of those same rules for using a gun or a sword. They need to know how skills work, what maneuvers allow what attack / defense / movement options, what the standard penalties are for ranged attacks, etc.

If the player can learn these things. I don't think the standard magic system is going to pose too much of a intellectual challenge. It's not rocket science. It's actually pretty simple.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Pagan

If the player can learn these things. I don't think the standard magic system is going to pose too much of a intellectual challenge. It's not rocket science. It's actually pretty simple.

I don't think it's the spell rules themselves that are the problem, so much as the huge breadth of choices available to a wizard. Choice paralysis is already a big issue for many new GURPS players, and the skill-based magic system gives a lot of choices. While Powers can be individually as complicated as spells, both in construction and use, they give the wizard a much smaller set of well-defined options at any given time.

[Pagan]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I don't think it's the spell rules themselves that are the problem, so much as the huge breadth of choices available to a wizard. Choice paralysis is already a big issue for many new GURPS players, and the skill-based magic system gives a lot of choices. While Powers can be individually as complicated as spells, both in construction and use, they give the wizard a much smaller set of well-defined options at any given time.

So do magical styles. Styles can have as few spells or as many as you design them to have. Choice paralysis is not exclusive to the magic system, as I understand it, it's a common complaint about the entire Gurps system.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Pagan

So do magical styles. Styles can have as few spells or as many as you design them to have. Choice paralysis is not exclusive to the magic system, as I understand it, it's a common complaint about the entire Gurps system.

I guess it just boils down to which system you feel most comfortable with. I have no problem writing up numerous spells-as-powers to flesh out a particular "style." I'm personally much less comfortable with the skill-based magic, and feel great trepidation at the thought of combing through the epic tome which is GURPS Magic to try and assemble even a single magical style. Based on others' comments on the forums, I'm not alone in these feelings. In short, it's a matter of experience, familiarity and preference.