[combat] giant issue in weapon reach question

[Walrus]

Originally Posted by Ji ji

Lexington is right, but in the context enter the high defensive abilities inherent to the system. Perhaps, I could try to give a malus to active defences while used against an attack readied by wait maneuver and involving entering in the max reach hex.

Comitted attack already gives less defense. So, it's a matter of necessity, not some attacking advantages of long weapon. Longer weapons are awkward and harder to strike (especially with thrusts) due to longer leverage.

I was exampling with spear and knife, but it can extend to longsword and shortword, and so on. I was thinking about the capacity to keep at bay, swinging the greatsword, numerous opponents with short swords.

It's just cinematic assumption and (for mooks) fear of being slain first.

I'll try with the malus HR to see if it fits with the cinematism that I annex to different-weapon-reach fighting.

And MA, p.108 gives better rules about stop hits

[mhd]

Originally Posted by Ji ji

Interesting points of view. Essentially, the factor more disturbing to me is the odd cinematism of retreat tactics, which favor backstepping, but lack in keeping at bay the opponent without significative movement.

I was exampling with spear and knife, but it can extend to longsword and shortword, and so on. I was thinking about the capacity to keep at bay, swinging the greatsword, numerous opponents with short swords.

Both things you mention are more a psychological factor than sheer battlefield dominion. People don't really want to run into a spear, but it's also a pretty small point of attack (albeit a very mobile one). Once you're past it, it's the spear carrier that's at an advantage, as his point is now out of reach. He has to get it in front of you again, either by pushing you or retreating. And if he's a defensive, don't get by me type, he probably evaluated the attack while he's attacking him, and then will launch a stop thrust (Wait & Attack). As I've said, the spear point is pretty mobile, so Deceptive Attacks are probably pretty common. This basically simulates your proposed AD penalty.

A greatsword is rather intimidating, but not really that hard to get by. Which is why lots of schools taught different grips for when people are too close to you. Keeping a lot of people at bay is in Martial Arts, I think, and done there by allowing you to parry multiple attacks with one try (and multiple parries are quite rare).

[Ji ji]

Following your advices, I tried some other solo simulation of combat. I have to admit that this issue is much less severe than what I thought. Almost not an issue, perhaps not an issue at all.

In regard of real combat techniques, I must make some remark to Walrus.
Spears aren't awkward at all. They are one of most nimble and swift weapons. For me, requiring a ready maneuver to adjust reach is totally foreign to spear techniques, which is made of very quick movement of hands along the shaft.
On the other hand, two hex is the reach of bastard sword and rapier too. I can't believe that you define long weapons as type XIX Oakeshott sword or rapier (or even striscia, D'Artagnan's weapon) as awkward.

Two-handed swords and spears are definitely weapons apt to keep at bay overnumbered opponents, even for a single warrior. Great weapon masters tell this in Reinassance martial manual, and I think that it's true. There is even a specific rule about this in GURPS MA, as remarked by mhd :)

Thanks everybody for your answers and advices.

[Walrus]

I must make some remark to Walrus.

Thanks. But still, I've just meant that you don't get bonus to skill (or inflict penalty to your foe via Deceptieve Attack) because you still need to turn your long shaft.

Originally Posted by Ji ji

For me, requiring a ready maneuver to adjust reach is totally foreign to spear techniques, which is made of very quick movement of hands along the shaft.

And this is Grip Mastery perk ;)

[chimchim]

I ran a series of arena duels a while back to familiarise my self and other players with a VTT system.
The spear proved to be a VERY effective weapon for standing opponants off. The Spear man would keep the point toward the enemy and declare a wait for a stop thrust. This became so psycologically intimidating to the other PLAYERS that one even tried throwing his two handed battle axe in desperation. I imagine the same thing applies in real combat.
The spear user in those tests remains undefeated.
(even on the occasion where he managed to drop his spear due to a crit fail. He drew his short sword and hacked the legs out from under his opponant- who learnt the value of leg armour that day lol)

[Gef]

Originally Posted by Walrus

And this is Grip Mastery perk ;)

Reach Mastery is for changing reach, Grip mastery is to shift between one-handed and two-handed or defensive grip.

[Lamech]

Actually this is how it would go down in all likelihood:
Spear's turn: Wait, loads up an attack manuever (stop trust specifically) if attacked.
Knife User: He charges in to range C making a move and attack. His MAX skill is nine due to penalties.
Spear interrupt: Attacks at full skill, he steps back to a range of 1. Knife user cannot parry, and cannot retreat without blowing his attack.
Knife: Attacks at nine skill, spear user can parry, and retreats to range 2.
Spear User: Loads up the same wait manuever
Knife Use: Must move and attack again. If the knife tries an attack he can only get to range 1, which means the readied attack will allow the spear to step out of range.


The process repeats itself over and over again, the knife user attacks at skill 9, cannot parry and cannot retreat. The spear user gets his full skill, can parry and always gets the retreat bonus. The knife user is utterly screwed.

[Kromm]

I must echo what chimchim said. In actual play, long weapons are extremely dominant. Between threatening a larger area, having reduced penalties for multiple defenses, and being at an advantage under the optional rules for things like Stop Hits and Cascading Waits in Martial Arts – not to mention the little things, like being more useful when you shove or slam – they really shine. This is contingent on good player tactics; he must be religious about stepping back after any maneuver that allows it, retreating on any defense that permits that, taking a Move to escape close combat when it happens, and taking a Wait instead of rushing when his foe is far away. The scariest fighter in my old fantasy campaign managed to make a yard of extra reach about as effective as another PC's six-level skill advantage.

[gilbertocarlos]

Even tought Spears can keep enemy at bay, there are some tricks to get near, that's the reason not everyone used Reach 2+ weapons in battle.

On average, the spearman will have the advantage of retreating combined with first attack, if the enemy only have melee attacks, that's fine, he will need to use 2 or 3 turns until he could get at Close Combat. OTOH, if he have a ranged weapon, he could attack you at range, so, when you are 3y from him, he fast draw a pistol or a knife, and throws at you.

Also, if spears were the best weapons ever, everyone would use them, they don't, because other weapons have other advantages as well.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Even tought Spears can keep enemy at bay, there are some tricks to get near, that's the reason not everyone used Reach 2+ weapons in battle.

The main ones being that not every battlefield lets you keep stepping away to control the distance (there are walls, stairs, other fighters, etc.) and that not every battle affords you the luxury of waiting for people to decide to rush you. A spear is terrible if you have to press for a narrow doorway at a run, against people who have short weapons and a Wait of their own, in order to achieve a time-dependent objective. It's also terrible in very tight quarters, where you can't move much and close combat can't be avoided.