On the Origin of Malakim

[Methariel]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

The Angelic Player's Guide says God created the Grigori after the Fall to protect and look after humanity. Now, whether God was obviously and explicitly creating them, or whether they just sort of started appearing in the Symphony and the angels said it was God (or whether there were any existing angels that transformed into them) is not entirely clear. On the other hand, if there was direct and unambiguous evidence that God created the Grigori then it becomes at least somewhat less likely that the Seraphim Council would cast out the entirechoir - the one choir God would have certainly and explicitly created as a response to the Fall.

Hm, I don't know if they really wouldn't have. The Grigori were created to fulfill a special purpose. Many, probably most of them didn't do what they were made for when they were hauled up by David's angels. Instead, they had become debased creatures doing sometimes the opposite of what they should've done. And those who weren't severely dissonant, heaps of Discord or even Fallen and not hidden didn't reject what their Choir-mates did. Instead, they sided with them - a non-dissonant behaviour, that still shows clearly that the angel in question is in active rebellion against God.

So the decision to Cast the entire Choir Out was a valid one, in my opinion.

M.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Methariel

The Grigori were created to fulfill a special purpose. Many, probably most of them didn't do what they were made for when they were hauled up by David's angels. Instead, they had become debased creatures doing sometimes the opposite of what they should've done.

Ah, then that's a design flaw. Made too-like humans with something too-much resembling Free Will, to stray so far from the purpose they were made for.

I like to distinguish humans from celestials in game by making my human characters as well-rounded as possible (within the PbP game that necessarily relies on tropes), and the celestials as specialized as possible. The Grigori might have found that roundedness too great a handicap--other angels just do what their urges point them to and trust in that. Grigori urges pointed them to breeding, because that's a strong human urge. They failed to distinguish role from Divine Purpose, a failing I think any angel would fall into.

Design flaw.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

I like to distinguish humans from celestials in game by making my human characters as well-rounded as possible (within the PbP game that necessarily relies on tropes), and the celestials as specialized as possible. The Grigori might have found that roundedness too great a handicap--other angels just do what their urges point them to and trust in that. .

Does that, perhaps, explain why Creation angels and their Superior are often more than a bit odd? Eli's Servitors have fewer restrictions than any other angel, after all ...

[Methariel]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Does that, perhaps, explain why Creation angels and their Superior are often more than a bit odd? Eli's Servitors have fewer restrictions than any other angel, after all ...

They're not "odd". They're creative. ;)

M.

[Methariel]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Ah, then that's a design flaw. Made too-like humans with something too-much resembling Free Will, to stray so far from the purpose they were made for.

Well, it's only a "design flaw" if you assume that angels don't have Free Will. If they have it, on the other hand, they simply did what they wanted to do instead of doing what they were supposed to do. The former led to all sorts of bad things (Nephallim, probably emotional pain for their human bed-mates, and so on) while the latter should've led to a better Humanity. The Grigori chose selfishness over selflessness - and were punished accordingly.

M.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Methariel

Well, it's only a "design flaw" if you assume that angels don't have Free Will. If they have it, on the other hand, they simply did what they wanted to do instead of doing what they were supposed to do. The former led to all sorts of bad things (Nephallim, probably emotional pain for their human bed-mates, and so on) while the latter should've led to a better Humanity. The Grigori chose selfishness over selflessness - and were punished accordingly.

M.

That's such a huge question--I seem to recall a whole thread about it. Alas, my brain is fading tonight so I'm not going to go read it right now.

But offhand I'd say they have less Free Will than humans. They have a greater number of drives and compulsions, and while they can fight those as well as a regular guy they pay a higher price for doing so. The whole resonance/dissonance/Discord thing suggests to me that they have a basic nature, and working against that nature changes it. So effectively no, they don't have Free Will in a substantial way. Just that they'd be boring to play if they couldn't make any autonomous decisions!