[TS] Slicing the pie, a question?

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I talked with Kromm and Hans about "Step and Wait." They both think it's fine, and this is how pie-slicing should be treated.

Has this been discussed in an earlier thread then? Because I feel a sense of Deja Vu...
But then again I often do ;)

Edit: But only Step-and... not Move-and...? So it's still the slow method at 1 yd/sec.
For a faster version it's just Move-and-Attack with the clause that the -2 for evaluating also allows you to not shoot if there are no targets. Of course you still need to roll Vision to spot the target in the first place.

But the slow slice allows you to use Sighted Shooting or what? So the Reflex Sight is usable?
And the fast slice only allows unsighted shots and hence only tactical lights and laser aimpoints?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

Has this been discussed in an earlier thread then? Because I feel a sense of Deja Vu...
But then again I often do ;)

I think it was, but there was also private mail.

Originally Posted by Kromm in private mail

>> explicitly allow Step and Wait

Checking my e-mail, I see that I gave permission for this way back in
the writing process . . . That's the one I like.

dhc

[Kromm]

Done properly, this is somewhat slow and precise. The object isn't to rush, but not to get shot or grabbed. Moving quickly around corners is done when time is of the essence (bombs ticking, hostages dying, etc.), but that isn't the same maneuver. People trained to slice the pie will still move as if they were doing it and look where they're supposed to look – that's the power of training – but they'll be operating too quickly to be guaranteed the initiative if someone is waiting. In game terms, they'll be walking the same path but without a Wait against their enemies.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Done properly, this is somewhat slow and precise. The object isn't to rush, but not to get shot or grabbed. Moving quickly around corners is done when time is of the essence (bombs ticking, hostages dying, etc.), but that isn't the same maneuver. People trained to slice the pie will still move as if they were doing it and look where they're supposed to look – that's the power of training – but they'll be operating too quickly to be guaranteed the initiative if someone is waiting. In game terms, they'll be walking the same path but without a Wait against their enemies.

Roger.
But how is the timing against a Waiting and stationary target?

The SWAT officer makes repeated Step-and-Waits around the corner, until he get LOS on a target. Assuming he maes his Per roll to spot the enemy, who shoots first?
Both have a wait going, so do they roll for speed as normal? Is there any difference in the fact that the SWAT guy is moving and the other is stationary?
I'd be tempted to give the stationary party a slight bonus to shoot first.

Which is why this is best preceeded by a flash-bang grenade.

However looking at TS p10 the box lists rules for "neither fighter has ready weapon" and "one party has ready weapon" - not "both have ready weapon"?

[Celti]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

But how is the timing against a Waiting and stationary target?

Martial Arts has rules for cascading Waits, p.108.

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

However looking at TS p10 the box lists rules for "neither fighter has ready weapon" and "one party has ready weapon" - not "both have ready weapon"?

Both have a ready weapon is the 'combat is already in progress' case, and is resolved using the standard turn sequence.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by Celti

Martial Arts has rules for cascading Waits, p.108.


Both have a ready weapon is the 'combat is already in progress' case, and is resolved using the standard turn sequence.

That may not work:

A is the SWAT guy slicing the pie of a hallway corner
B is the foul terrorist crouching behidn a desk with a Wait aimed at he corner.

Sequence:
B: Wait, opportunity fire at the corner
A: Step-and-Wait, no target presents itself, nothing happens
B: Still Waits
A: Step-and-Wait, no target presents itself, nothing happens
...[this may go on for several seconds, until:]...
A: Step-and-Wait, suddenly there is a target. BANG!
B: Was actually waiting for this so: BANG!


Now, since A was the one moving into LOS, is he the active party and shoots first? That sounds silly since B was Waiting for this very thing.

Do you only now look at Basic Speeds to see who goes first? Odds are that the SWAT guy is highly trained and faster so he always shoots first. So what is the effect of B's Wait?

TS p24 says you roll a quick contest *if neither chose a Wait manoeuvre*. But what if *both* did as in the example above?
Would that be the same? Make a roll for speed? That seems fair.
Sure, if only one guy was Waiting he shoots first.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

But what if *both* did as in the example above?
Would that be the same? Make a roll for speed? That seems fair.

You use Cascading Waits (p. MA108) for multiple fighters taking Wait. It's also modified by hip shooting and unsighted shooting in Fast-Draw situations, if applicable. As it says on TS24, it's a Contest of skill, but not necessarily Guns. If using Wait, you get bonuses for being faster, moving less, and having Combat Reflexes.

[vicky_molokh]

Sorry for the necro, but I'm interested in the situation as well. Here's what seems like an important nuance to me:

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

A: Step-and-Wait, no target presents itself, nothing happens
...[this may go on for several seconds, until:]...
A: Step-and-Wait, suddenly there is a target. BANG!
B: Was actually waiting for this so: BANG!


Now, since A was the one moving into LOS, is he the active party and shoots first? That sounds silly since B was Waiting for this very thing.

Do you only now look at Basic Speeds to see who goes first? Odds are that the SWAT guy is highly trained and faster so he always shoots first. So what is the effect of B's Wait?

TS p24 says you roll a quick contest *if neither chose a Wait manoeuvre*. But what if *both* did as in the example above?
Would that be the same? Make a roll for speed? That seems fair.
Sure, if only one guy was Waiting he shoots first.

It seems very important what is the triggering condition.
Note that if it's a Step-And-Wait, then first A makes a Step, then A starts waiting for some condition to trigger an attack. So at the moment A shows up in B's FoV, A is not Waiting yet - merely Stepping in preparation to Wait.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

The SWAT officer makes repeated Step-and-Waits around the corner, until he get LOS on a target. Assuming he maes his Per roll to spot the enemy, who shoots first?

Actually, when do you have to declare the nature of your attack on a Step and Attack? I think it would be most streamlined to simply say that you can Step and Attack and choose whether to attack after the step changes your LoS. If the step triggers a gunman's Wait (Opportunity Fire), maybe make a contest of Per, or Per based Soldier, with the waiting firer at some bonus, minus the penalties listed under Opportunity Fire (B548).

The mover would, I assume, take the same -2 penalty as a pop up shot if he shoots.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Done properly, this is somewhat slow and precise. The object isn't to rush, but not to get shot or grabbed. Moving quickly around corners is done when time is of the essence (bombs ticking, hostages dying, etc.), but that isn't the same maneuver. People trained to slice the pie will still move as if they were doing it and look where they're supposed to look – that's the power of training – but they'll be operating too quickly to be guaranteed the initiative if someone is waiting. In game terms, they'll be walking the same path but without a Wait against their enemies.

Allowing Wait and Step is a significant change to the dynamics of combat though! For example, it lets someone use Wait to close the distance with a longer weapon, instead of Evaluate or AoD. If this is supposed to be a general principle not a special case, it would have been proper to spell it out.

It also means that a "leading someone at gunpoint" situation gives the gunman a Wait, instead of allowing an uncooperative prisoner one turn to act before the gunman responds. That is a big mechanical change to a fairly common situation in fiction.