Entangle & Hit locations

[munin]

An Entangle is not an Armed Grapple (which uses grappling hit location penalties), it has its own rules (Lariats, p. B411, and Entangle, p. MA71). As no mention is made of using grappling hit location penalties (as Armed Grapple explicitly does), just use the normal hit location penalties.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by munin

An Entangle is not an Armed Grapple (which uses grappling hit location penalties), it has its own rules (Lariats, p. B411, and Entangle, p. MA71). As no mention is made of using grappling hit location penalties (as Armed Grapple explicitly does), just use the normal hit location penalties.

While it's not an Armed Grapple, which is the technique of using a weapon to grapple someone in close combat, an Entangle is a grapple. Armed Grapple makes reference to it (" . . . to snag an opponent at full reach") and Martial Arts p. 71 uses the same technical language (break free) used to describe grapples.

It does use special rules, as you say. You don't suffer -4 to DX, you suffer effectively -infinity to DX (you're "immobilized.") You can't follow a successful entangle with grappling techniques, except the neck, where you can Choke or Strangle (which requires a grapple of the neck to do it normally).

Beats (MA, p. 101) says if you have your opponent grappled barehanded or with a weapon (via Entangle, Hook, etc.), you may pull them off balance or attack their unarmed guard with a Beat. So here we see Entangle is considered an armed grapple, even if not an Armed Grapple.

Given the power of the technique in RAW, striking penalties might be appropriate here (and the "no mention uses default rules" is a pretty good point). Still, there's a LOT of evidence that both Hook and Entangle are grapples at Reach 1+, and that says to me "use the grappling rules."

[Tinman]

I'm still confused...

So, you are saying it's a -4 to try entangle & -4 to strike the foot = -8?

Or is it a -4 to entangle & -2 to grapple the foot = -6?

For entagleing the foot it the location penalty (for just the foot) a -2 or a -4?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Tinman

I'm still confused...

So, you are saying it's a -4 to try entangle & -4 to strike the foot = -8?

Or is it a -4 to entangle & -2 to grapple the foot = -6?

For entagleing the foot it the location penalty (for just the foot) a -2 or a -4?

What you're seeing is disagreement. I see munin's point; there's some support for it. That would be the -4 for Entangle, PLUS the -4 for the foot.

I think that an alternate way would be to invoke the overall grappling rules for what is essentially a ranged grapple: Entangle at a base -4 and the grappling penalty for the foot at -2.

[Tinman]

Yes. I see that. Ofcourse, that is the exact replay of the conversation in my head whitch promped me to post here on the forum. :)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Tinman

Yes. I see that. Ofcourse, that is the exact replay of the conversation in my head whitch promped me to post here on the forum. :)

Well I do have a certain book being written right now, and it will great Entangle as a grapple. BUT . . . munin's point and method has merit, so I won't say "he's wrong," but rather "that's not how I'd do it."

If you're looking for a hard answer, you'll want to PM RPK or Kromm.

[Tinman]

yeah, Looks like I will have to. I was hoping for a forum consensus.
Thanks for you help DC.