Loot in GURPS??

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Sniperkitty

lets say i wanted to create the GURPS equivalent of http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Handy_Haversack

Hideaway and Lighten enchantments. No, it's not an exact match, but it's pretty close. For pricing, GURPS Magic provides a suggested price for magical items per point of energy, and the Dungeon Fantasy line is rather more explicit about what magical items cost. I'm getting the impression you don't have GURPS Magic, but you probably really want it if you're going to run a dungeon crawl sort of campaign, since it at least partly answers a number of your questions.

Originally Posted by Sniperkitty

I'm not noticing this much guidance in GURPS.

Yep. The thing is, GURPS as a system can't make the kind of assumptions that D&D does about what's valuable and what isn't, the prevalence of magic, and so on, and it lacks really good metrics for that sort of thing anyway. For example, in a campaign based on the works of Jane Austen, such an item may be theoretically priceless (since it's effects are, in a mundane 19th century setting, miraculous) though not particularly useful to characters, since they're spending all their time negotiating advantageous marriages rather than toting around equipment. In an ultra-tech campaign, it's probably reasonably useful but not particularly valuable because everybody can get force-fielded antigravity bags down at the corner store. You need to get into specific types of campaigns in order to nail down the utility of unusual items like that, and the GM often has to make his own decision rather than just rely on what the books tell him, because the books may not be adequate to support the GM's unique creation. If you're running, as it seems you may be, a D&D-ish sort of campaign, I'll reiterate the calls that you look into the Dungeon Fantasy line. That will give you answers suited to that particular kind of game.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Sniperkitty

5. I don't know whether i should give my 135 point starting players one of those backpacks to start with, or wait till 200 points, or 250, or ... you get my point. at what level is a certain item appropriate? THAT'S the biggest thing i need help with.

That is simply not a decision the game system has an opinion about. It depends on the world, and the style of the campaign, not the game system. Because GURPS tries hard to be both "generic" and "universal", as opposed to D&D's firm dedication to a particular style of fantasy game, the core rules don't have answers to question like that.

An even deeper issue is that GURPS doesn't have a concept like character levels. You can't say "250 points is about like 7th level D&D", any more than you can say "All 40 year old Americans drive cars worth between $15,000 and $25,000". Some can't drive, some drive cars worth a lot less, and some worth much more. A GURPS 250 point TL10 catgirl bioroid from the Mars of Transhuman Space won't be able to do much in a D&D world, and a D&D magician won't be able to breathe, let alone do any magic, on the Mars the catgirl is from.

[Jerander]

For simple, easy loot with prices attached, check out the Magic Items volumes (here, here, and here). They are for 3rd Edition GURPS, but most should be directly portable without too much trouble.

[zorg]

Originally Posted by johndallman

That is simply not a decision the game system has an opinion about. It depends on the world, and the style of the campaign, not the game system.

This.

Also, there are a number of considerations whether to drop a magic item into the characters lap beyond their level of ability (and besides genre and play style): for one, plausibility, and for another, focus.

The plausibility angle means that you first need to think about whether a given item makes sense as loot in a given situation - enemies don't drop loot depending on the character level, but depending on what they're carrying around. If you rob a goblin peasant, you won't find much of value, even if you are a famous demigod. If you steal from the Liche King, he'll have insanely powerful items even if you are a measly 20CP-character (Neither the goblin nor the lich will have a simple C-cell, in all likelihood).

The focus angle means that you, as GM, need to decide whether you want an item, depending on its effect. A Ring of Regeneration makes wounds less scary. If you want a tense game with a high bodycount, then that's not a good item for you.

An even deeper issue is that GURPS doesn't have a concept like character levels.

This is very important. A 500-CP character might have spent all that on Accounting, Mathematical Ability, and Expert: Red Tape. A 75-CP character might have focused on Driving: Mecha and Gunner: Megacannon, and Patron: Mech Lord. Comparing point values is futile.

[Obirandiath]

Turhan beat me to it, but I second that motion. The cost is relative to how common or how rare magic items are in your world. The accepted standards presented in Magic are that any item with an energy cost to create equal to or less than 60 will cost $1 per point of energy. Any item that requires more energy than that to create will cost $33 per point of energy. The math behind those prices is laid out in detail in Magic. I understand that Dungeon Fantasy increases the $1/point threshold to 100 energy, but otherwise is the same.
Regarding the skill bonus items you asked about, the spell Lend Skill does that. However, it was subject to severe abuse in 3E and so in 4E can no longer be enchanted into items. Attribute bonuses (ST, DX, etc.) still exist in enchantment form though they are expensive (+1 to DX is 2000 energy).

4. what if i want to create an item that modifies or gives bonuses to an advantage? or mitigates (or enhances) a disadvantage? what are the rules for such items?
There are spells that mimic some advantages and can be enchanted into items - Combat Reflexes and Perfect Balance, for example. Removing a disadvantage is rare but some spells can have such an effect - Bravery to mitigate a Phobia, for instance.
The Powers book also has rules for creating intelligent items that fall under the Allies advantage. Since these items are characters, they can have advantages and some grant them to their wielder.
As for the question of allowing players to start with enchanted items, I usually go with: if they can afford it, let them. The prices are generally prohibitive to starting characters, even wealthy ones. While buying armor with Fortify +1 on it costs only $50 more, having +1 DR isn't going to throw the game out of balance. Buying that weapon that has Accuracy +2 costs an additional $33,000, so will be well out of reach for anyone who is not Filthy Rich. I can think of many better ways to spend 50 cp's other than on Filty Rich, especially at character creation.
Finally, a note that is presented in one of the Dungeon Fantasy supplements advises that it's generally better to err on the side of being too generous with loot than too stingy. Many rules allow for the destruction of equipment, especially weapons and shields. Thieves, tax collectors, Enemies, etc., all have their eye on cool items, too. Players who want to make sure an item sticks around will have to pay for it with cp's in Signature Gear (1 cp/$500 value). Everything else should be considered temporary.

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by Sniperkitty

you guys... are delightfully weird.

1.in d&d the price is given for an item to give the gm an idea of how powerful it actually is, in order to gauge when it would be appropriate to give it to the character. that's why the resultant price is included in the item creation. I'm not noticing this much guidance in GURPS. There is a price chart for powerstone costs, but i don't understand how that might be ported to every other type of magic item. If i wanted to create that handy haversack, how much would it be/how valuable would it be in terms of player reward?

So here's the biggest weakness of the Generic/Universal part of GURPS: because the system doesn't profess to know the setting, style, etc., of the campaign you are playing, there's no practical way to do this. In fact, if the game world makes any attempt to have some sort of realistic socioeconomic model, power-level of characters isn't likely to scale with PC power level so much as social status, rank, and wealth. So that metric doesn't really work for GURPS campaigns unless they are set up explicitly to do so. The closest to that is the Dungeon Fantasy line, and even in it there is no economic gauge for power level -- the best distinction is "artifact" vs. "magic item".

Originally Posted by Sniperkitty

3. what if i didn't want it to be a magical handy haversack, i wanted it to be a technological handy haversack? psionic powered? what would the difference be? how would i create it, and especially calculate the costs/value?

Probably GURPS Powers would be the best for this -- it would allow you to create items that grant powers. In this case, some sort of cargo capacity, with the psionic power limitation.

Originally Posted by Sniperkitty

4. what if i want to create an item that modifies or gives bonuses to an advantage? or mitigates (or enhances) a disadvantage? what are the rules for such items?

Again, Powers. Though some of this is in the Basic set. I believe the item limitation exists there. As for either of these items, pricing would be arbitrary, and you'd probably need to figure out how they were created within the game world. The considerations there (other than power level) are rarity, demand, material costs, and labor costs.

Originally Posted by Sniperkitty

5. I don't know whether i should give my 135 point starting players one of those backpacks to start with, or wait till 200 points, or 250, or ... you get my point. at what level is a certain item appropriate? THAT'S the biggest thing i need help with.

For this, I can give you an example of what I'm doing in an upcoming campaign. I have a base of 129 points, plus an additional 6d6 points -- I like a bit of randomness in character point totals. I'm also giving players the chance to trade in up to 2 of these d6 (making it 5d6 or 4d6 additional points) for a roll on the DF 8 Treasure Tables. Whatever they get, they get. Which can be $15 in pepper, or a VERY POWERFUL artifact. The caveat is that they need to find a way to integrate the result of the roll into their character's background. Otherwise, all PCs start with $1000 as well as a very basic kit.
Is this the ideal way for things to work? It is for MY campaign, because I think it will be fun (and possibly serve dramatic purposes). But it may not be for any one else's campaign. A lucky roll could create power imbalances. But it could also serve as a plot hook, and can serve to help a player flesh out his character to explain why he has a +5 sword of thwacking.
I could just as easily sit down with each player and give them magic items to start with, which could also be fun (I've done it before). None of these are bad ideas, they just create different campaigns. Starting out with nothing by 3 gp, a knife and a loincloth helps to set the tone of the campaign, at least initially, just as much as much as starting out with a magic sword, a horse, and a good suit of armor.

[Pmandrekar]

Originally Posted by Sniperkitty

you guys... are delightfully weird.

You are clearly very diplomatic. I applaud your caution... Huzzah!

-P

[RyanW]

You could also treat the bag of holding family of items as a gadget (see Characters p. 116) giving Payload.

Originally Posted by Sniperkitty

In D&D the explicitness of the rules are INCREDIBLY helpful because it gives a very good idea of the value of the loot

As has already been said, GURPS can't afford to assume much about the setting. A magic item might be a cheap, utilitarian thing in one setting, and a priceless artifact in another.

[Sniperkitty]

The thing is, GURPS as a system can't make the kind of assumptions that D&D does about what's valuable and what isn't, the prevalence of magic, and so on, and it lacks really good metrics for that sort of thing anyway.

and

Everything else which said that in different words

Thank you. I understand. it's too generic and universal at the same time. i imagined that the value of an enhancement could be converted in some round-about way to a point equivalency, similarly to how the gp value of an item in d&d has a level/challenge level equivalency. I will definitely take a look at the links provided and the books recommended.

I realize now that the restrictions of d&d require the expansion of abilities through items (i'm level 10 and i want a higher lockpick skill than i can normally have at level 10? well i'll just get an item that boosts it!), and gurps doesn't have those restrictions, you just give points, and they can buy what they want with it.

Kinda like the difference between getting someone a gift (D20 ogl), and giving them cash (gurps).

So how else do I (or you) reward players? how do you yourself make sure not to give a gift that is worth much more than you expected?

[Anders]

Kromm recommends (in DF2) giving too much rather than too little. You can always take stuff away (although it may elicit howls of protest).