[LT] Iron and Steel Armor

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Throw in extra problems, like translating to different languages, on top of sheer linguistic drift and disagreements between various technical jargons, and it's a wonder we can all agree on "ferrous".

Worse, start a supers campaign, get four different supernatural creatures as the party (they know this is a supers game, right?), three of which are vulnerable to "cold iron" ... and none of them can agree on what they actually mean by the term "cold" iron!

One person means wrought iron, one person means cast iron, and a third means any iron! The one who didn't make their supernatural critter vulnerable to it thinks that "cold iron" should be either meteoric iron or alchemically-treated iron.

Cue a six-way discussion between the GM, players, and the channel's resident mad engineer over what exactly is "cold iron".

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Worse, start a supers campaign, get four different supernatural creatures as the party (they know this is a supers game, right?), three of which are vulnerable to "cold iron" ... and none of them can agree on what they actually mean by the term "cold" iron!

"Obviously the word 'cold iron' is not well defined, and therefore you cannot take a disadvantage based on it. You can take a disadvantage based on the exact substances you have in mind; please tell me what those are."

I'm of the opinion that "cold iron" is just a poetic epithet for iron, like "the red blood poured on the ground" or "he drank the sweet wine" or "they faced bitter death." (Or "rosy-fingered Dawn," for the classical trope.) You can see it used that way in Kipling's ballad "Cold Iron": the prototype of cold iron was the nails driven through Christ's hands and feet, and the Roman army didn't use rare meteoric iron for that sort of job. All iron is cold iron. Then modern people who didn't grasp the nature of poetic language in an oral literary tradition started reading the older literature and making up bizarre theories about what the epithets meant.

But whether I'm right or wrong, the mere fact that there are opinions as divergent as mine and the "meteoric iron" theory shows that "cold iron" doesn't mean anything unequivocal and doesn't define a proper limitation. Time to make them be specific.

Bill Stoddard

[Bruno]

Heck, I'm inclined to be literal minded at people, and would cheerfully turn that into "iron below 10 degrees Celsius" (or possibly 0 Celsius, the freezing point of water for folks on other systems)

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Heck, I'm inclined to be literal minded at people, and would cheerfully turn that into "iron below 10 degrees Celsius" (or possibly 0 Celsius, the freezing point of water for folks on other systems)

If you're going that way, why not simply "cold iron = iron that has frozen solid"?

Bill Stoddard

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by whswhs

If you're going that way, why not simply "cold iron = iron that has frozen solid"?

Bill Stoddard

Because the path from literalism to calling something so hot it glows 'cold' is a rather confusing one?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by whswhs

If you're going that way, why not simply "cold iron = iron that has frozen solid"?

Because there's another transition at the Curie point (770C = 1418 F) that's much more plausible than that. After all that's where iron gains its magical property of magnetic attraction.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Because there's another transition at the Curie point (770C = 1418 F) that's much more plausible than that. After all that's where iron gains its magical property of magnetic attraction.

What, you're saying that a temperature that is associated with a blatantly visible change of macroscopic state that anyone can see is less plausible as a boundary point than a temperature at which it becomes possible for iron to be magnetized? Who's going to be testing the magnetizability of molten iron at TL2-4?

In fact, I'd say that the natural question is, "Does it feel cold when I touch it?" In which case anything below 300 K will be "cold" and anything above 320 K will be "hot," more or less. The coldness of iron really comes from its high thermal conductivity. . . .

Bill Stoddard

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by whswhs

What, you're saying that a temperature that is associated with a blatantly visible change of macroscopic state that anyone can see is less plausible as a boundary point than a temperature at which it becomes possible for iron to be magnetized?

Because magnetism is *obviously* a magical property, just like the ones cold iron is supposed to have.

Anyway, I don't think anybody before TL5 ever saw any molten iron either, you really can't obtain temperatures high enough to melt it outside a closed furnace. Well OK, I suppose some Chinese blast furnaces may be technically TL4, and it's not impossible somebody had a mica window or something, but....

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Heck, I'm inclined to be literal minded at people, and would cheerfully turn that into "iron below 10 degrees Celsius" (or possibly 0 Celsius, the freezing point of water for folks on other systems)

So lots of desert fairies but few on mountain tops?

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

So lots of desert fairies but few on mountain tops?

? It's not like mountain tops are made of iron. The issue isn't "iron" or "cold", but "cold iron" after all :) Mountain-tops, sub-arctic, arctic, and deserts (at night) will make iron weapons and armor hazardous, but even then a fae beastie could handle an iron item briefly by dumping it in hot water to warm it up

Originally Posted by whswhs

In fact, I'd say that the natural question is, "Does it feel cold when I touch it?" In which case anything below 300 K will be "cold" and anything above 320 K will be "hot," more or less. The coldness of iron really comes from its high thermal conductivity. . . .

That's waht I was thinking of with my 10C/0C definitions (10C for "cold to the touch", 0C for the "risk of frozen fingertips" coldness)

I mean, if you can get your tongue stuck to it, it's definitely cold enough to count as "cold" IMO - I think you can do that at 0C or possibly just a smidge under 0C but close enough for GURPS. But it's certainly "cool" to the touch at higher temperatures (although I'd quibble significantly with your 300K benchmark, and pick something lower than that.