What conversions of "classic" AD&D modules to Dungeon Fantasy have you done?

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

Dpends on the party size. I think I had two players and an accompanying NPC for White Plume Mountain, but obviously my memory isn't the best for that stuff. D&D modules expect at least four players, even five, making them even better to run under DF, given the group sizes that adults with responsibilities can muster.

And the level of the adventure. 250 point DFs can wax most humanoids in bunches with no problems, but critical hits, surprise, bad rolls, massed attacks, etc., can help a lot. And in higher level adventures, just remember that skill is also part of AD&D monster's stat (HD go up, and HP and to hit go up together) so scale that up too.

[Gef]

Originally Posted by Ed the Coastie

I tend to set the adventure in the 1890's along the coast of Wales...with the subsequent adventures being set on the east coast of Africa and then off the coast of Madagascar.

Neat idea. I think it would play even better, come to think of it, without lizard men. Might be a suspenseful but realistic game, might be a non-supernatural set-up for Horror, or Cosmic Horror.

GEF

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Ed the Coastie

*nods* In my experience, most D&D and AD&D modules just aren't designed to handle a 250-point GURPS Dungeon Fantasy character build, much less an entire party of them...not without beefing them up to the point that they start looking like the guy in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie who drank an entire flask of Jekyll's serum. If I were to try running one using DF, I would probably use 150-point characters from Eric B Smith's Dungeon Fantasy on the Cheap.

Originally Posted by Rasputin

Dpends on the party size. I think I had two players and an accompanying NPC for White Plume Mountain, but obviously my memory isn't the best for that stuff. D&D modules expect at least four players, even five, making them even better to run under DF, given the group sizes that adults with responsibilities can muster.

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

And the level of the adventure. 250 point DFs can wax most humanoids in bunches with no problems, but critical hits, surprise, bad rolls, massed attacks, etc., can help a lot. And in higher level adventures, just remember that skill is also part of AD&D monster's stat (HD go up, and HP and to hit go up together) so scale that up too.

As always, I must point out that the point value doesnt matter. Its only useful for defining the options that the charachters have available and the charachters relative to each other.

If you scale the challenges up to the point where Orcs are worthy for 250 point adventurers then they are functionally 'level one' (to use that arcane designation). Its not abut point values, its how capable they are in the world that determines their 'level'.

There really is no good reason that brand new 250 point DF guys couldnt have a great time in the Original Keep on the Borderlands and then progress on to much higher point values and plunge through Ravenloft or the Lost tomb of martek or even the G series.

I only say this because I spent alot of time trying to figure out what level one meant in gurps point values. I realized that it didnt matter. They are completely disjoint concepts that are only tied together by interpretation, not math. Again, if a single goblin is giving you fits, your level one. If your kicking flaming snot right out of a dragon, your probably level 10 (or so).

That said, I started my DF group on a slightly lower point budget but have torn well through a few of the 'pocket' modules that we could DL for free from WOTCs website. I chose to use the lower point values so that they could feel like options were opening up and becoming available to them. That they were getting stronger relative to certain creatures in the environment. That they were 'leveling up'. Its worth noting thought that DF already provides 'next level' sorts of options that will soak up points for a long long time.

Nymdok

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

As always, I must point out that the point value doesnt matter. Its only useful for defining the options that the charachters have available and the charachters relative to each other.

Okay, so points don't matter, but:

Originally Posted by Nymdok

If you scale the challenges up to the point where Orcs are worthy for 250 point adventurers then they are functionally 'level one' (to use that arcane designation). Its not abut point values, its how capable they are in the world that determines their 'level'.

...but they do matter, because you have to scale up the fodder to worthy by giving the fodder more points to make them tougher.

I catch your meaning but you're undermining it a bit here - because 250 points gives you a lot of options that are all pretty kick-ass (starting mages with Magery 6, Weapon Masters with ST 17 and Skill 20+, 20+ HP in easy reach of several combat templates, etc.) DF guys are meant to chop up orcs in bunches, and if you re-scale that it doesn't make much sense to me - better to drop the PCs point values than to make their "starter" opponents into really tough guys.

Originally Posted by Nymdok

There really is no good reason that brand new 250 point DF guys couldnt have a great time in the Original Keep on the Borderlands and then progress on to much higher point values and plunge through Ravenloft or the Lost tomb of martek or even the G series.

For what it's worth, I'm running a party through B2 right now, and they're having a blast. But the fodder opponents are still fodder. I didn't see any reason to cheapen the PC's 250+50+5 by making orcs one-on-one tough opponents. They're meant to be fodder, IMO, and DF characters are meant to be tough. I made the tough monsters tougher, but the fodder still die hard even when they fight well and use smart tactics . . . because 250 point guys aren't neophytes with low HP like 1st level D&D characters are.

Level doesn't translate to points, that's true.

But fodder-filled AD&D adventures will amount to so much fodder carrying treasure in DF. If you keep them as fodder, that is. If you juice them up, no, but it feels lame to say, here, make a 250-point guy, but unless you outnumber the orcs expect to die. Who wants that? I don't want to get 250 points but then have the orcs scaled up. I want 250 points and then have the zombie vampire lich-trolls scaled up.

You're not wrong that it's how you distribute the points, but it's hard to follow the DF templates and end up with knights who can't kick butt, barbarians who suck at outdoors stuff, thieves who can't steal people blind, etc. Most of the DF skills my DF PCs have are at the template default levels, and they are pretty good. "Oh, hey, I *do* have Survival, at a 15. Sweet! I make it by 5." That kind of thing. The knight does 3d+8 with the Thrusting Greatsword he started with; orcs aren't a big deal.

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Okay, so points don't matter, but:



...but they do matter, because you have to scale up the fodder to worthy by giving the fodder more points to make them tougher.

Agreed - not much fun to have a 250 pt character get whupped one on one with an Orc. Makes you wonder how normal people stay alive.

I know it's said you really can't compare levels and points but I think you can make a pretty good case 1st level old school D&D characters are about 75-100 points. The range for "Competent" is 50-75 and I figure a 0 level man at arms is about at that level. That means a 1st level fighter or similar character should be at least a notch above that, so around 75-100 points. Then the question is how much each level above is worth.

[donal]

Originally Posted by Ed the Coastie

*nods* In my experience, most D&D and AD&D modules just aren't designed to handle a 250-point GURPS Dungeon Fantasy character build, much less an entire party of them...not without beefing them up to the point that they start looking like the guy in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie who drank an entire flask of Jekyll's serum. If I were to try running one using DF, I would probably use 150-point characters from Eric B Smith's Dungeon Fantasy on the Cheap.

Good point – and I'm definitely using the 150 point limit for Against the Cult of the Reptile God, but allowing the unrealistic DF options.

[Ed the Coastie]

Originally Posted by Gef

Neat idea. I think it would play even better, come to think of it, without lizard men. Might be a suspenseful but realistic game, might be a non-supernatural set-up for Horror, or Cosmic Horror.

I kept both the lizard men and the sahuagin...although in my game, they were actually both groups of Nommo (from Atomic Horror) engaged in a bitter civil war. The sahuagin fortress, incidentally, was being built on the site of the sunken ruins of what had once been Libertatia.

I still use Nommo -- and the "Nommo Civil War" -- in my games.

[ajardoor]

The module I am most interested in seeing converted is Return to the Keep on the Borderlands, not the original - because Return is very cool for roleplaying and dynamic encounters.

Anyone done anything with that?

[khorboth]

My wife and I are working on a full conversion for the Dragonlance Chronicles. it's been about 9 months of work so far, but we're mostly done with the system parts.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Okay, so points don't matter, but:

...but they do matter, because you have to scale up the fodder to worthy by giving the fodder more points to make them tougher.

I catch your meaning but you're undermining it a bit here - because 250 points gives you a lot of options that are all pretty kick-ass (starting mages with Magery 6, Weapon Masters with ST 17 and Skill 20+, 20+ HP in easy reach of several combat templates, etc.) DF guys are meant to chop up orcs in bunches, and if you re-scale that it doesn't make much sense to me - better to drop the PCs point values than to make their "starter" opponents into really tough guys.

<Snip>

If you juice them up, no, but it feels lame to say, here, make a 250-point guy, but unless you outnumber the orcs expect to die. Who wants that? I don't want to get 250 points but then have the orcs scaled up. I want 250 points and then have the zombie vampire lich-trolls scaled up.

You're not wrong that it's how you distribute the points, but it's hard to follow the DF templates and end up with knights who can't kick butt, barbarians who suck at outdoors stuff, thieves who can't steal people blind, etc. Most of the DF skills my DF PCs have are at the template default levels, and they are pretty good. "Oh, hey, I *do* have Survival, at a 15. Sweet! I make it by 5." That kind of thing. The knight does 3d+8 with the Thrusting Greatsword he started with; orcs aren't a big deal.

I accept that I interpret it very differently than I think it was intended, and I also accept that ADD was by no means the only influence in the development of DF. Kromm has stated that the 250 templates are meant to be accomplished adventurers and have a bit of swagger to them. (Sorry I cant find the citation). I merely put forth the notion that this need not be the case for any reason.

Regardless of what the options are available to them at the 250 point level, I dont think its impossible to come up with challenges that will be suitable for them, it simply means that those options must be considered, and apporpriate modifiers, counter options, and other measures must be in place. This is true for any point level and any adventure though isnt it? It doesnt really matter much if you call it an orc or a dire whatnot or an Ogre Magi. It doesnt really matter if its at a -1, -5 or -10 modifier for a skill check.

I know that this is a bit wide of the RAW that states that -10 oughta be ridiculously impossible, and that skills in excess of 18 are experts. For me, the modifiers and skill levels are just numbers that help me get the odds of success that I want.

I still havent proven this idea out completely first hand, were still building up our DF party, but its going swimmingly so far.

Nymdok