Wizard Vows

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Ts_

Ugh, thinking about this for a while, pricing Vows correctly is very messy.

First of all, I'd look at two broad aspects of a Vow:
Is it completely within your control or can outside forces make you break the Vow?

[snip]

Then consider what happens when you break the Vow (willingly or not). This is some new disad that lasts for a certain period. The Basic Set and Vows from the Chi-based power modifier or for Clerics seems to assume something like a 1 month quest to restore your Vow. But it could range from a day of misfortune to permanently losing all your Magery.

Factor in how easy it is to break the Vow. "Never speak" is trivial to circumvent in an emergency, so are various forms of Pacifism or weapon restrictions. (Just grab a better weapon and put on non-textile armor.) If you have fastened your entire life (say, this gives -1 to ST and -1 to FP, as you need some effect of this Vow), there is little reason to suddenly give it up. The ST won't come back any time soon, the FP might be back on the next day. More extreme cases might require you to rebuild your life (and character sheet), in which case you could have just as well bought off the disadvantage.

By RAW, Vows cannot be broken. Even in an emergency. The player wants his character to say something, but he has Vow (Keep silent at all times) the character cannot say anything. If the player tries anyway, I'll overrule him.

Same thing with Pacifism, it cannot be broken. Same thing with weapon restrictions. If the only weapon you have available is one you have Vowed not to use, you will not use it.

Then comes the pricing:
[snip]
So, for the examples in this thread:
Not using certain weapons / armor is maybe a quirk each for a low ST mage. It's also easy enough to break in an emergency. (Use a spear with staff skill or shoot a crossbow from default with lots of aiming and Luck or wear heavy armor when meeting the assassin at night.) Consequences are presumably loss of Magic Powers for the typical duration of a few weeks.
From this, I'd say it's a Quirk (Wizards don't like metal weapons & armor) [-1].

If you permanently lose Magery or suddenly die or have to retire, it still would be only [-2] (the full value of these equipment restrictions) because it's entirely within your choice to not use these weapons. This assumes that if someone puts you into chainmail while unconscious, that this doesn't count as breaking the Vow.

If even touching such weapons or being forcefully put into armor gives you severe penalties, the Vow becomes a more severe disad. Say, metallic armor destroys your Magery (but only if you wear it) and this is a well-known weakness of wizards and someone can force you to put on armor ... Then if you break this Vow you acquire the 50 point Disad equivalent to losing your Magery and Spells permanently. However, to make you break this Vow you would have to be at the mercy of someone else, so at that point people could just as well kill you ... So maybe only 10% of the gained disads apply, giving you a [-2 + -5] Vow.

As a comparison, a Secret on average shows up in 10% of the game sessions, and you can try to prevent its revelation and nobody has to subdue you just to make your secret public. The Secret is worth 50% of the disads that permanently replace it. So something that probably shows up just as often but is much harder to work against you should be worth a lot less. That's why I chose 10% of the new disad.

With this in mind, some of the Vows in the Basic Set seem badly priced ... The "no edged weapons" [-10] is just crazy. Yes, it's the most important class of weapons (in TL3), but many fighters can live just fine with spears or hammers or using blunt sword-like things if necessary. Well, the GM could always screw you by only dropping +5 swords in the loot or using encounters that are immune to anything but cutting damage, but that would be weird.

On the other hand, the Vow ("Never Speak") [-10] seems to be reasonable compared to Cannot Speak ("Mute") [-25].

Regards
Ts

There are no game mechanical penalties for breaking a Vow, as they cannot be broken. Not even in an emergency.

A Vow has the same cost no matter who you are. No matter if you're low ST or high ST. Warrior or wizard.

I'm looking for costs based on RAW, not costs that disregard it.

Wizards may like swords and metal armor. They may even love them and collect them. But they will not use them in combat. It's not the same thing.

[Kromm]

Staying on-topic this time:

Originally Posted by Dragondog

Vow: Wizard Weapons Only - The only weapons you use are staffs, daggers, and knifes.

Vow: Wizard Armor Only - The only armor you use is textile armor.

Both of them seem to each be as restrictive as No edged weapons [-10]

I could get behind -10 points for the first Vow. It is indeed about as restrictive as Vow (No edged weapons) [-10]. Given that Vow (Always fight unarmed) [-15] is canonical, and found in many GURPS sources across a couple of editions, no Vow that restricts weapons – however tightly – yet permits armed combat should ever be more severe than -10 points. Rather than go into the false precision afforded by counting weapons or gauging relative effectiveness, I would simply say this:

• A Vow not to use one specific weapon is a quirk. Example: "Never use a dagger, for it is the weapon of assassins." -1 point.
• A Vow not to use a small class of weapons is minor. Examples: "No swords" (nothing sharp used with Broadsword, Knife, Main-Gauche, Rapier, Saber, Shortsword, Smallsword, or Two-Handed Sword) or "No heavy battlefield weapons" (forbids crossbows, flails, greatswords, lances, longbows, polearms, spears, warhammers, etc.). -5 points.
• A Vow not to use a large class of weapons would be major. Example: "No edged weapons" or "No ranged weapons." -10 points.
• Only a Vow to use no weapons at all, ever would ever count as "great." -15 points.

Treat a Vow only to use a small class (e.g., "Only swords" or "Only heavy battlefield weapons") as major [-10] and one only to use a large class (e.g., "Only edged weapons") as minor [-5]. Err on the side of fewer points. Vowing only to use daggers and staffs, or for that matter only to use the rapier, still allows some weapons, so it's -10 points.

Armor-related Vows are trickier. I would take everything down a class for wizards:

• A Vow never or always to wear one specific item is a quirk. Examples: "Never wear a helmet, because it blocks magical energies" or "Always wear a helmet, because it filters out distracting evil thoughts." -1 point.
• A Vow not to use the best armor is minor. Examples: "No metal armor" or "No heavy battlefield armor" (forbids anything with DR 4+). -5 points.
• A Vow not to use any armor at all would be major. -10 points.

This isn't symmetric with the weapons case because there are skeevy ways to get DR without armor in fantasy, and wizards are among their foremost users: Armor spells, Bracers of Force, Ironskin Amulets, Robes of Protection, etc. I'd only give -15 points for this Vow to a warrior, or to a wizard who eschewed not just armor but DR.

Collectively, this would make your wizard Vows worth -15 points, which is about the limit for Vows. I would not let gear-related Vows stack up to -20 points or worse for anybody.

Originally Posted by Dragondog

By RAW, Vows cannot be broken.

There are no game mechanical penalties for breaking a Vow, as they cannot be broken.

This is not strictly true. You can break a Vow and there is a game-mechanical penalty: You have to pay off the Vow, because it's now clear that you don't take it seriously. If you can't afford to pay it off, then the GM gets to withhold points until it's paid off . . . or just give you a new disadvantage to replace it, like Reputation (Oath-breaker) or reduced Magery. That's what "If you want to end a Vow before its stated time, the GM may exact a penalty" is getting at.

[Dragondog]

Thank you.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

A Vow has the same cost no matter who you are. No matter if you're low ST or high ST. Warrior or wizard.

That isn't quite true. A Vow is always a personal thing. You may be asked to take it by someone else, but it's still your Vow and priced for the restrictions it places on you.

In my examples, I assumed a wizard because it appears that wizardly powers are to be tied up in the question. Remember that "No edged weapons" for clerics, when chosen, explicitly forms the basis of a Pact limitation that costs the cleric his powers if he picks up a blade! As has been hinted at here, the same Vow would be a free 10 points for a warrior with ST 20, Two-Handed Axe/Mace-20, and a huge maul. Likewise, my armor Vows took into account that wizards don't need armor as much as other characters – not with Armor spells, Shield spells, Iron Arm, etc., and not given that their profession isn't "warrior" but "support."

It also matters what the consequences are. It would be perfectly fair to say that wizards must take Vow [-10] to purify their minds to learn magic, but can then break the Vow later on at the cost of a level of Magery. The net effect on point value would be 0, but the wizard would really have to want to break the Vow! That isn't the same as the cleric case (a cleric loses his powers, he doesn't just drop a level of Power Investiture) because the wizard has no Pact. If a cleric's Pact were more severe, his Vow would rise to match it. These character-specific considerations are a big part of pricing Vows.

[Kuroshima]

Kromm, a vow to only ever use NERF weapons (and not even fight unarmed) would be even more restrictive that one that forces you to fight unarmed xD

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Kromm, a vow to only ever use NERF weapons (and not even fight unarmed) would be even more restrictive that one that forces you to fight unarmed xD

I'd give -15 points for that one. :)

[Ts_]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'd give -15 points for that one. :)

I think Kuroshima would want to play a NERFed Mystic Knight. Would that still be a -15?

More seriously, why is "no edged weapons" worth -10 points? I just don't see it unless the PC has already put points into edged weapons. And even then, you can still use training weapons with cr instead of cut damage at full skill. You could get +2 Striking ST for this after all.

Sure, it sounds like a severe thing, but let's compare it to Vow ("Never speak") [-15]. That makes a wizard completely useless (unless he has very high skill). The "no edged weapons" only inconveniences a fighter (the class that is supposed to depend on weapons). Also, "Never speak" applies in way more situations than just combat. It affects anyone using social interactions. It's bad for Leadership/Tactics in combat etc. There's a reason "Mute" is worth [-25] even to character concepts that don't especially rely on speech. So why is "Never speak" only [-15]?

From this I draw the conclusion that Vow ("Never speak") [-15] is appropriately priced, but "no edged weapons" is way too munchkinny. You could also say that a Vow should cost as much as the disadvantage it represents and price Never Speak as [-25]. I don't agree but I also think Vows can be broken on rare occasions without lasting consequences (if you try to restore yourself in front of your god etc), so they aren't quite as severe as the real disadvantage. (I've already tried to expand on this upthread to accomodate different kinds of Vows, in particular those that cannot be broken ...)

Thanks for any insight into "No edged weapons"!
Ts

[Darieltis]

Originally Posted by Ts_

More seriously, why is "no edged weapons" worth -10 points? I just don't see it unless the PC has already put points into edged weapons. And even then, you can still use training weapons with cr instead of cut damage at full skill. You could get +2 Striking ST for this after all.

I would imagine it has to do with damage type...edged weapons can do cutting damage or impaling (some anyway), and both of those types get multipliers for penetrating damage...plus the ability to amputate limbs etc. Blunt weapons do crushing damage only iirc.

[Anaraxes]

Vow: Do One-Third to One-Half Injury To All Targets [-10]